# So-called 'abused' prisoners = The beheaders **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 12, 2004, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-abused-prisoners-the-beheaders/244714 "2004-05-12T01:31:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-abused-prisoners-the-beheaders/244714/81 "2004-05-12T11:49:01Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > If a certain culture feels that forcing a man wearing panties or to rollick about with other naked men is worse than _having your fucking head cut off_, then said culture is fucked, and in dire need of updating. I didn’t think it would be that easy to miss the point, but it seems I was wrong; let me reiterate; this isn’t about whether cutting someone’s head off is better or worse than the abuses reportedly carried out against Iraqi prisoners, it is about **HOW MUCH MORE SERIOUS AND OFFENSIVE THOSE ABUSES MIGHT APPEAR TO THE VICTIMS THEMSELVES AND TO LOCAL BYSTANDERS THAN PERHAPS THEY DO TO MOST WESTERNERS**. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-abused-prisoners-the-beheaders/244714/82 "2004-05-12T12:01:47Z")
I guess our rather stupid friend **Brutus** missed the stories about Iraqi prisoners actually being murdered by their guards. We’ve haven’t seen videos of the murders, we’ve had to content ourselves with still pics of the dead bodies. I guess it comes down to: We only kicked and beat prisoners to death. We weren’t so _barbaric_ as to cut their heads off. As far as we know. This week. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-abused-prisoners-the-beheaders/244714/83 "2004-05-12T12:27:56Z")
It never ceases to amaze me how easily weak minds are seduced by the Dark Side. Giving in to rage, hatred and revenge is so easy, so satisfying, yet it will never accomplish anything but the perpetuation of rage, hatred and revenge. Satan must be laughing with delight as you, of your own free will, leap into the Great Abyss. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-abused-prisoners-the-beheaders/244714/84 "2004-05-12T12:29:55Z")
What about rephrasing “flouting the Geneva Convention” and “prisoner harassment” to “War Crimes”. That’s what the happenings in Abu Ghraib were, and they should be treated as such. Al Quaida is a terrorist organisation, which doesn’t pretend that it will adhere to the terms of the GC. The American government and its military are held to higher standards, because they ARE NOT supposed to be terrorists. So yes, by all means try and find the guys who killed Mr Berg and put them on trial, execute them if you feel you have to. But you better do it properly, without torture or summary justice, and in public, where justice can be seen to be done. The eyes of the whole world (not just the middle east) are on you, and right now, they aren’t liking what they see. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-abused-prisoners-the-beheaders/244714/85 "2004-05-12T12:45:55Z")
> [@](#): > > The point of my OP was to point out that the prison ‘scandal’ is the US at its worst. And it is **several orders of magnitude** less than what happened to this American civilian. Or what happened in Fallujha. That for all the accusations, true or false, The West is still unmeasurably morally superior to the Arab world. And there’s nothing wrong, or racist about pointing that out on these occasions. Its just the truth. And that truth has been sorely lacking these past few weeks regarding the prison photos. This horrific video (I felt) made that obviously clear. That was not the point of the OP, as expressed. As posted, the point of the OP was that all “those” people (apparently everyone East of the Mediterranean) were horrible and deserved to die. Of course, this quote continues to express errors of fact. The murder of one individual by knife is not “orders of magnitude” worse than the humiliation, rape, torture, and murder of dozens (possibly hundreds) of other people regardless of any arbitrary claim that it is. In addition, there is a difference between a small group of terrorists carrying out a single random act and a major military force continuing to carry out multiple acts that violate the laws of that force’s own nation (and the rules of that force, itself) over the course of 14 months while having those violations repeatedly called to the attention of the people in charge of that force, both by independent outside groups and by observers within that force, itself. The “superior morality” of the military force is arrant nonsense. (And, of course, in the world of **Hail Ants** , the actions in Fallujah are, somehow, worse than the actions in Abu Ghraib mostly because “they” did it to “us” rather than based on any objective scale. (The four guys in Fallujah were shot to death (an evil act) but the outrage has been over the _subsequent_ abuse of their corpses. This is hardly “worse” than the systematic humiliation of the prisoners who are still living and must bear the shame.)) ---
**Author:** ![curly\_chick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7ba0ec/32.png) [@curly\_chick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curly_chick)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-abused-prisoners-the-beheaders/244714/86 "2004-05-12T13:21:45Z")
> [@Hail Ants](#): > > The West is still unmeasurably morally superior to the Arab world. That has to be the most pompous piece of shite I’ve read in a long time. No, I’m not an Arab. Are you not aware that most, if not all fundamentalist terrorists of any stripe justify their actions on the entirely misguided notion that the other lot are morally degenerate? Are you off down the Terrorist Recruiting Office this afternoon? They’ll just love you. ---
**Author:** ![Eolbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d07c76/32.png) [@Eolbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eolbo)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-abused-prisoners-the-beheaders/244714/87 "2004-05-12T13:50:28Z")
> [@Hail Ants](#): > > The point of my OP was to point out that the prison ‘scandal’ is the US at its worst. And it is **several orders of magnitude** less than what happened to this American civilian. Or what happened in Fallujha. That for all the accusations, true or false, The West is still unmeasurably morally superior to the Arab world. [As Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld faces questioning on Capitol Hill over the abuse and humiliation of prisoners at Iraq’s Abu Ghraib prison, ABCNEWS has obtained new photographs in a case in which an Iraqi prisoner died at a makeshift prison camp run by U.S. Marines in southern Iraq. The photographs show a 52-year-old former Baath Party official, Nadem Sadoon Hatab, who died at the detention center last June after a three-day period in which he was allegedly subjected to beatings and karate kicks to the chest and left to die naked in his own feces. … The medical examiner testified it took him hours to die…]([http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/World/Iraq\_abuse\_death\_040507-1.html](http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/World/Iraq_abuse_death_040507-1.html)) As has been said, we are not talking childish pranks here but rape and murder. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-abused-prisoners-the-beheaders/244714/88 "2004-05-12T14:04:34Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > I think you missed my question. I guess **Hail Ants** pretty much answered it when he said "The West is still unmeasurably morally superior to the Arab world. " Clearly he’s a racist idiot; yet another person who lacks very basic intelligence to see that the actions of some do not reflect the whole of the race. Oh, and **Senggüm** , although you quoted it, you did not answer my Chicago prison analogy question. Here it is again, for your convenience: Suppose five guys in Chicago brutally kill somebody. It would then be justified to do whatever you want to random inmates in Chicago prisons, I suppose? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-abused-prisoners-the-beheaders/244714/89 "2004-05-12T14:26:51Z")
AS tempting as it may be to preen ourselves that the West is morally superior to the Arab world, further reflection will tell us that is simply not so. Who perpetrated the Holocaust? Westerners. Who deliberately starved the Ukraine in the 30s? Westerners (Well, Russia, so it’s a tough call.) Who did nothing to stop the massacre of the Tutsi in Rwanda? Westerners. Who has encouraged Israel to use draconina measures against Palestinian civilians? Westerners. Who continued to abuse prisoners in Saddam Hussein’s torture chambers? Westerners. Now I’m no fan of Arabs or Islam, and their cult of death worship and martrdom is repulsive, but they are no worse than we are. They’re people just like us, and people, all people, of every race, are capable of committing the vilest acts in the name of the god or their flag. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-abused-prisoners-the-beheaders/244714/90 "2004-05-12T14:43:21Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > If a certain culture feels that forcing a man wearing panties or to rollick about with other naked men is worse than _having your fucking head cut off_, then said culture is fucked, and in dire need of updating. How about beating a guy for three days and leaving him to die in his own shit? Personally, I’d rather get my head cut off. How about the rape and torture of a 12 year old girl? Siccing a dog on a naked man? Raping teenage boys? Bashing a guy’s head in with a rock? Are you misinformed about that stuff or are you just a deliberately disingenuous fuck? ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-abused-prisoners-the-beheaders/244714/91 "2004-05-12T15:14:00Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Now all this in mind, I can still say that beheading a helpless man is _ALSO_ bad and yes, in fact it is worse, and I can even say that I would be very happy to read that every last one of the men responsible had been found and killed. I do not see this as inconsistent with the ability to say “the guards at Abu Ghraib were scum”. Huzzah \ Sensibility! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![overlyverbose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/9dc877/32.png) [@overlyverbose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/overlyverbose)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-abused-prisoners-the-beheaders/244714/92 "2004-05-12T16:04:53Z")
> [@Hail Ants](#): > > The West is still unmeasurably morally superior to the Arab world. And there’s nothing wrong, or racist about pointing that out on these occasions. Its just the truth. Comments like this are exactly the reason that the Arab world, and virtually every other country that is not the United States, hates the U.S. Have you ever lived in the Middle East? How could you possibly make a statement like this and actually believe it is true? Jesus Fucking Christ. The West has also been, and in some cases clearly continues to be, incredibly lacking in morals, yet you seem to be blind to that. Just like the most militant Islamic fanatics, the West has tortured, murdered, raped and committed the vilest of atrocities on hundreds of thousands of people, and turned a blind eye as others joined in the “fun.” And you claim that the West is morally superior? Disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-abused-prisoners-the-beheaders/244714/93 "2004-05-12T16:14:04Z")
> [@TwistofFate](#): > > New Law: > > the longer discussions of the actions of coalition forces continue, the more likely it is to see the “Saddam was worse” arguement. Oh, hell. Discussions don’t even have to go very long. I think I saw something similar on the first page of this thread. Waste ---
**Author:** ![mouthbreather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a698b9/32.png) [@mouthbreather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mouthbreather)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-abused-prisoners-the-beheaders/244714/94 "2004-05-12T16:28:56Z")
Once we defeat our viscous foes, we can move on to the real enemy: Thermal breakdown. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-abused-prisoners-the-beheaders/244714/95 "2004-05-12T16:33:32Z")
**Hail Ants** : > [@](#): > > The point of my OP was to point out that the prison ‘scandal’ is the US at its worst. And it is several orders of magnitude less than what happened to this American civilian. Or what happened in Fallujha. Well, I hope like hell that you’re right about it being the worst. And it’s not a ‘scandal’, schmuck. It’s a full-blown cock up. Pay some attention. As to whether or not it’s somehow less bad than cutting off Berg’s head, I dunno. Both of 'em make **my** stomach turn. I don’t imagine that you feel bad about what was done to Iraqi citizens at all. Which removes you from the pool of people who can comment on all of this with any moral authority at all. > [@](#): > > That for all the accusations, true or false, The West is still unmeasurably morally superior to the Arab world. And there’s nothing wrong, or racist about pointing that out on these occasions. Its just the truth. And that truth has been sorely lacking these past few weeks regarding the prison photos. This horrific video (I felt) made that obviously clear. Well, others have pointed out to you just how pig-fucking stupid you are to assume moral superiority when you have none. But I would like to point out to you that just because **you** think that something is lacking doesn’t mean that it is. There has been an enormous amount of coverage of what has gone down at Abu Ghraib, and just as much of what happened with Mr Berg. Again, pay some attention. > [@](#): > > But let me also say, there is something wrong with people who see a video of a man about to be butchered alive and morally equate it in any way to photos of prisoner harassment. Maybe there’s worse to come, maybe not, but that’s all I’ve seen so far. Oh, get stuffed, Ace. There is no moral equation and I daresay that you cannot find a single person here who doesn’t feel that what happened to Mr Berg was horrible. And since Rumsfeld has already hinted that there is worse to come, I would be willing to bet that what has been seen is only the beginning. > [@](#): > > Later… Wassamatter? You don’t like having people point out to you just how stupid you are? Or are you off to find a board filled with assholes and bigots who agree with you? Waste ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-abused-prisoners-the-beheaders/244714/96 "2004-05-12T17:14:15Z")
[http://theonion.com/wdyt/index.php?issue=4019](http://theonion.com/wdyt/index.php?issue=4019) Woot! Reward for reading so far into this shitty, shitty thread. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-abused-prisoners-the-beheaders/244714/97 "2004-05-12T17:32:41Z")
What we really need here is dueling atrocities. Disregarding for the moment that the United States purports to be a civilized Western democracy and that the people who murdered Mr. Berg are (by report) connected to a gang of ideological terrorists and not with any state, in the present involvement the objective is to stabilize the country to the point that the United States can get the Hell out of there or at least free up its armed forces. The chances of stabilizing Iraq are not enhanced by arguments that the acts of a civilized Western democracy are rendered less culpable because its opponents, a gang of stateless ideological terrorists, are worse. That argument leads down a very steep slope. Having read this and other threads, having heard the comments of the vitriolic idiot the good people of Oklahoma sent to the US Senate, having listened to the froth and blather that is turning up on the talk shows, I can’t help but wonder if we are looking at the reverse of the Big Dawg theory of statecraft. The United States gets to do anything it wants to anyone it wants, any time it wants, any place it wants and nobody can do anything about it: but if somebody does anything that offends the United States then no one should be able to comment when the United States bitches and whines about it. The President keeps telling us we are at war. If this is a war, if our opponent is a stateless gang of homicidal madmen, then we have to be prepared for the consequences of that fight while trying to maintain the principals of a Western democracy that we claim to be upholding and advancing. We cannon maintain our self respect when our response to murderous madmen is to ourselves become murderous madmen. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-abused-prisoners-the-beheaders/244714/98 "2004-05-12T18:49:40Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > How about beating a guy for three days and leaving him to die in his own shit? Personally, I’d rather get my head cut off. > > How about the rape and torture of a 12 year old girl? Siccing a dog on a naked man? Raping teenage boys? Bashing a guy’s head in with a rock? > > Are you misinformed about that stuff or are you just a deliberately disingenuous fuck? Or misinformed due to bogus pics and information [http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE\_ID=38464](http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38464) > [@](#): > > Boston residents got more than they bargained for this morning when their copy of the Globe came complete with graphic photos depicting U.S. troops gang-raping Iraqi women. > > Problem is the photos are fake. They were taken from pornographic websites and disseminated by anti-American propagandists, as first reported by WND a week ago. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-abused-prisoners-the-beheaders/244714/99 "2004-05-12T19:16:41Z")
> [@Spavined Gelding](#): > > The United States gets to do anything it wants to anyone it wants, any time it wants, any place it wants and nobody can do anything about it: but if somebody does anything that offends the United States then no one should be able to comment when the United States bitches and whines about it. This does appear to be the doctrine underlying Bush’s foreign policy. Honestly, I think it’s that he thinks that he’s God’s chosen leader of God’s chosen people and thus he is entitled to do absolutely anything he feels is necessary to implement his, er, I mean God’s, will, and anyone who stands opposed to him is serving the Devil and can be destroyed with God’s blessing. It’s sad to see what religion can do when taken to extremes. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-abused-prisoners-the-beheaders/244714/100 "2004-05-12T19:25:11Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > Or misinformed due to bogus pics and information > [http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE\_ID=38464](http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38464) What does this story have to do with anything I cited? Do you have a more reliable source for this story than WND? I can’t find anything on a google news search. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-abused-prisoners-the-beheaders/244714.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-abused-prisoners-the-beheaders/244714.md?page=6)