# So called Armenian genocide **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [May 20, 2005, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-armenian-genocide/304730 "2005-05-20T13:23:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![sfTruth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@sfTruth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sfTruth)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-armenian-genocide/304730/1 "2005-05-20T13:23:44Z")
[So called Armenian genocide](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/050520.html) Cecil I can not understand how you can make such a mistake. You can look at the census records which were conducted by the French and saw that there were about 1.2 million Armenians living in the Ottoman Empire. So can explain to me that how the Ottomans did killed 1.5 million Armenians. If we will be talking about genocide and appalling crime and butcherings I would suggest to look at what happened in at the night of February 25 1992 in Khojaly Azerbaijan. Here are some web sites that you can get information and pictures. Also lets not forget %20 of the Azerbaijan is still occupied by Armenia. [http://www.armenianreality.com/massacres\_in\_azerbaijan/khojaly\_tragedy.html](http://www.armenianreality.com/massacres_in_azerbaijan/khojaly_tragedy.html) [http://www.khojaly.net/khojaly.html](http://www.khojaly.net/khojaly.html) [http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5078/](http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5078/) [http://www.khojaly.org/?id=3009](http://www.khojaly.org/?id=3009) [http://www.armenianreality.com/massacres\_in\_azerbaijan/massacres\_in\_azerbaijan.html](http://www.armenianreality.com/massacres_in_azerbaijan/massacres_in_azerbaijan.html) [http://www.azerigenocide.org/](http://www.azerigenocide.org/) ---
**Author:** ![Spiff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiff/32/9852_2.png) [@Spiff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiff)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-armenian-genocide/304730/2 "2005-05-20T14:02:14Z")
What’s the name of that big river in Egypt? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-armenian-genocide/304730/3 "2005-05-20T14:16:19Z")
I was going to link to the column but it doesn’t seem to be up on the website yet. In any event the 1.5 million number has been agreed upon by many reputable disinterested historians. All the OP has is links with an obvious axe to grind. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-armenian-genocide/304730/4 "2005-05-20T14:48:49Z")
> [@](#): > > You can look at the census records which were conducted by the French and saw that there were about 1.2 million Armenians living in the Ottoman Empire. So can explain to me that how the Ottomans did killed 1.5 million Armenians. Interesting argument for denying genocide: “There weren’t enough of them around for us to kill that many.” ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-armenian-genocide/304730/5 "2005-05-20T15:02:21Z")
I dont hae time to search that many links. Here’s [one](http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/armenians.htm) There were two million Armenians living in the Ottoman empire prior to the genocide, not 1.2 million. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-armenian-genocide/304730/6 "2005-05-20T15:22:00Z")
Cecil called the genocide the 8th worst (from 1900-1987). What are the other six? ---
**Author:** ![jtlaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/858c86/32.png) [@jtlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtlaw)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-armenian-genocide/304730/7 "2005-05-20T16:16:23Z")
For those interested in exploring this topic further, Egyptian-born, Canadian-raised, ethnically-Armenian filmmaker Atom Egoyan made a movie in 2002 called “Ararat,” about the genocide. I’m not sure how available it is outside Canada, but your local indie movie rental place should have it, or be able to tell you how to get it. Jason ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-armenian-genocide/304730/8 "2005-05-20T16:18:32Z")
[Ararat](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0273435/) looks to be widely available for sale. I’ll check it out. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-armenian-genocide/304730/9 "2005-05-20T16:36:05Z")
> [@Spiff](#): > > What’s the name of that big river in Egypt? Sphinx? No-no-no, that’s the name of a statue. Well, _ **something** _ around here _Sphinx_, I can tell you _that!_ ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-armenian-genocide/304730/10 "2005-05-20T17:06:58Z")
I first heard of the Armenian genocide when I moved out to Los Angeles from Texas. There’s in huge Armenian community here and the genocide is highly publicized, at least in the San Fernando Valley, where I live. At CSUN (Calif. State Uni, Northridge) there was a large memorial on the commons in front of the main library a couple weeks ago commemorating those who were killed in the genocides. Armenian culture is also coming back! At the Pasadena playhouse, my partner did some costume and wardrobe work for them when there was a revival of Armenia operas held over the past two Septembers. We got to attend the first. They had super-scripting, so the ability to follow the plot/dialogue wasn’t too hard. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-armenian-genocide/304730/11 "2005-05-20T17:14:56Z")
> [@adam yax](#): > > Cecil called the genocide the 8th worst (from 1900-1987). What are the other six? In no particular order, I would guess Hitler Stalin Pol Pot Mao Tojo Kim (N. Korea) That guy in Etheopia ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-armenian-genocide/304730/12 "2005-05-20T17:46:56Z")
[http://www.straightdope.com/columns/021018.html](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/021018.html) > [@](#): > > The following are Rummel’s 12 most murderous regimes (from his article in the Encyclopedia of Genocide, 1999): (1) USSR, 62 million deaths, 1917-'87; (2) People’s Republic of China, 35 million, 1949-'87; (3) Germany, 21 million, 1933-'45; (4) nationalist China, 10 million, 1928-'49; (5) Japan, 6 million, 1936-'45; (6) prerevolutionary Chinese communists (“Mao Soviets”), 3.5 million, 1923-'49; (7) Cambodia, 2 million, 1975-'79; (8) Turkey (Armenian genocide), 1.9 million, 1909-'18; (9) Vietnam, 1.7 million, 1945-'87; (10) Poland, 1.6 million, 1945-'48; (11) Pakistan, 1.5 million, 1958-'87; (12) Yugoslavia, 1.1 million, 1944-'87. Three additional “suspected megamurderers,” as Rummel puts it, are North Korea, 1.7 million deaths, 1948-'87; Mexico, 1.4 million, 1900-'20; and czarist Russia, 1.1 million, 1900-'17. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-armenian-genocide/304730/13 "2005-05-20T18:10:11Z")
The minute I saw this column I knew there would be someone posting here denying the truth. What a suprise that there has only been one person thus far. Maybe progress is being made. ---
**Author:** ![Plynck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Plynck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plynck)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-armenian-genocide/304730/14 "2005-05-20T18:25:06Z")
Until a moderator can edit the OP, [Here is a link to the SD Column](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/050520.html). No cites, but I seem to recall reading once that the Nazis sent observers to Turkey. I think that this was because of their interest in the [grimace of disgust] logistics of disposing of so many bodies, and they were looking for more efficiency knowing they had a larger population to deal with [/grimace of disgust]. However, given the stated time frame of the Armenian genocide (1915-1922), this would have been a lot earlier than I would have anticipated, given that Kristallnacht was in November, 1938. This would imply to me that the Nazis either sent the observers considerably after the genocide, or that the Holocaust was much longer in planning than I had ever realized. best to all, plynck ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-armenian-genocide/304730/15 "2005-05-20T18:48:42Z")
> [@Plynck](#): > > No cites, but I seem to recall reading once that the Nazis sent observers to Turkey. I think that this was because of their interest in the [grimace of disgust] logistics of disposing of so many bodies, and they were looking for more efficiency knowing they had a larger population to deal with [/grimace of disgust]. No. The Germans had people in Turkey/the Ottoman Empire during WWI, because the two countries were allied, and they did send reports back about the killing of Armenians (such reports being much of the contemporary documentary evidence that it happened), but they weren’t Nazis, obviously. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-armenian-genocide/304730/16 "2005-05-20T19:29:11Z")
> [@sfTruth](#): > > Cecil I can not understand how you can make such a mistake. You can look at the census records which were conducted by the French and saw that there were about 1.2 million Armenians living in the Ottoman Empire. So can explain to me that how the Ottomans did killed 1.5 million Armenians. > [@Cecil](#): > > the Armenian death toll for 1915-1922 totals a million to a million and a half. I don’t see a population estimate of 1.2 million being inconsistent with a total death toll of 1 to 1.5 million over 8 years. Three questions for the OP (if he or she is still around): (1) How many do you estimate died in the Armenian genocide? Or when you call it “so called”, do you you mean that no Armenians were killed by the Turks in 1915-1922? (2) You compare it with “the night of February 25 1992 in Khojaly Azerbaijan”. How many died then? (3) How many cilivilians died on each side during the Azerbaijani-Armenian conflict of 1988-1994? I’m not suggesting that the Armenians did not cause civilian casualties in Khojaly Azerbaijan, but every conflict has two sides… ---
**Author:** ![lawoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/35a633/32.png) [@lawoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawoot)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-armenian-genocide/304730/17 "2005-05-20T19:40:04Z")
[Khojaly Massacre](http://www.geocities.com/fanthom_2000/reserveindex.html) Looks like 600 to 2000 people. ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-armenian-genocide/304730/18 "2005-05-20T19:52:29Z")
I’m just waiting for the response from [Serdar Argic](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdar_Argic). ---
**Author:** ![flodnak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/838e76/32.png) [@flodnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flodnak)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-armenian-genocide/304730/19 "2005-05-20T20:11:41Z")
> [@Punoqllads](#): > > I’m just waiting for the response from [Serdar Argic](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdar_Argic). Ah, that takes me back. On alt.folklore.urban, one poster quoted a commercial jingle in his .sig file - Pizza Hut or something, a song about the horrors of post-Christmas leftovers, which managed to use the word “turkey” (the food) at least a dozen times - just to see what it would do to Serdar’s little grepping program. Those were simpler days… ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-armenian-genocide/304730/20 "2005-05-20T20:44:27Z")
I had never heard of the Armenian genocide before reading this column, so I’m looking over the “notorious 12” list with some interest. I have questions about several of them. \*\* (4) nationalist China, 10 million, 1928-'49 (6) prerevolutionary Chinese communists (“Mao Soviets”), 3.5 million, 1923-'49\* I’m surprised that there were two genocides in the same country in the same time period. Why are they not combined? \*\* (5) Japan, 6 million, 1936-'45\* Were these 6 million people Chinese, as in Nanking? _(10) Poland, 1.6 million, 1945-'48_ Is this separate from Nazis? Is it listed separately simply because it was in a different country? _Mexico, 1.4 million, 1900-'20_ I didn’t know this one, either, and Mexico is adjacent to Texas! The oral history around these parts is that Pancho Villa was a murderous bandit. My wife’s grandfather even flew air support in the US expedition into Mexico to try to capture him. In discussing this with a cow-orker who is from Mexico City, I learned that their viewpoint is not _exactly_ the same. I guess I need to learn more about it. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-armenian-genocide/304730.md?page=2)