# So-Called “Cancel Culture”, Social Media and Bullying **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 9, 2020, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676 "2020-08-09T23:29:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Dr.Conrad\_Shadowdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ea924/32.png) [@Dr.Conrad\_Shadowdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Conrad_Shadowdale)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2020, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676/403 "2020-08-18T14:27:53Z")
Mods, this is your show but, as the OP, you have my permission to shut this thread down. The droning is not really breaking any new ground. I do appreciate the back and forth from all. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2020, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676/404 "2020-08-18T14:32:07Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And I haven’t made a point of “dismissing something I don’t know.” I haven’t read it, but I know enough about it. I’m allowed to have an opinion about someone who argues that it “makes good points.” You are absolutely entitled to what appears to be a not very well informed opinion about a book you’ve not read and about what others have said about something someone has said on the subject. Tell you what. Since neither of us knows much about it, let’s just drop the subject and save further embarrassment. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2020, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676/405 "2020-08-18T14:33:36Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Well, yeah, that’s what happens when we are just ordinary people exploring issues and expressing our opinions in a forum dedicated to that very thing. You don’t get to control who answers your questions. There was nothing misleading in my answer. And even if you thought it was misleading, I came back to the thread to clarify with a pretty comprehensive rebuttal. “Be Kind” does not mean “Shut Up.” End of story. I don’t care if you answer, I care that you gave a shitty, misleading answer. They are campaigning for a whole hell of a lot more than ‘be kind’, something you very well know. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > so are you changing your argument now? No I’m not. WTH are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2020, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676/406 "2020-08-18T14:35:43Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > If Trump wins in 2020, will you agree to consider alternatives? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m already advocating all the rhetorical alternatives, all at once. Which is going to happen anyway, no matter what I say. Is that a ‘no’, then? ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2020, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676/407 "2020-08-18T14:39:30Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Well, if you’re worried about long lines, I can assure you that M will be quicker in the can than natural ladies, since M won’t have menses or pregnancy complications to deal with, and every transman who uses the men’s room will bring those problems there instead. You don’t know how much time M or any trans woman uses in the restroom. If M spends only 5 min in a stall, that is 5 min longer a pregnant woman might have to do the pee pee dance before losing her dignity. Maybe this doesn’t bother you, but as someone who has done the pee pee dance while pregnant (and lost control)…well, let’s just say your apathy has been duly noted. It’s example #3948 of men taking for granted the reproductive burden women carry. Not every transman uses the men’s restroom, btw. If they are menstruating, a men’s restroom can pose more of inconvenience if there are few available stalls and no bins for throwing away used materials discreetly. > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > And since we’re assuming M is a transwoman, I’m not suggesting allowing any males into a female space. I am however, very interested in protecting women from men who would sneak into a bathroom for the purpose of assaulting them. I don’t believe that has anything to do with respecting transwomen. How do you suppose we prevent men from identifying as women? I’m interested in how you envision us letting in one kind of male person in without letting in the other. The honor system? [This is a trans woman.](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/MtF/comments/5h1xhl/bearded_trans_lady_chugging_along_here/) She looks just like a regular man to me. If she can claim a female identity, any man can. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2020, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676/408 "2020-08-18T14:41:56Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > WTF do you imagine you’ll bait me into saying? That Hitler had some good points when he orchestrated his genocidal agenda that resulted in the murder of millions that included a grandfather I would never know and a half dozen great aunts and uncles? …I’m **not baiting you**. I’m not **trying to distract**. I’ve provided an analogue. Lets go back to how this started. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What is “shutting down”? Suppose I’m arranging a conference, and I want to invite prominent people on whatever field. And suppose, **because I want to fight bigotry,** **I don’t invite some scientist who said “actually the Bell Curve made some good points” because that’s a really dumb thing to say and I don’t want him at my conference.** Did I do something wrong? Or am I obligated to invite this asshole? I’ve bolded the relevant parts. The “I want to fight bigotry” is the bit that you are missing. It isn’t really about “saying dumb things.” Its about bigotry. Its why (excuse me for assuming your motives iiandyiii) the Bell Curve was invoked. And your reply, later in the thread. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > It’s your conference. Invite who you want. **But if addition to saying something dumb about the Bell Curve** this person has something smart to say, perhaps he would be a worthwhile participant? Its clear that you’ve missed the important part of the original reference. About fighting bigotry. iiandyiii responded: > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Because of this really dumb thing they said. **And because I want a more diverse panel than last year.** Both of these are fine reasons, IMO. Your response: > [@QuickSilver](#): > > That’s fine. But you should know that if you insist on such pristine standards, **you are going to run out of interesting, qualified speakers faster than you might imagine.** iiandyiii was originally talking about fighting bigotry, then talked about more diverse panels. You ignored that, focused on the “dumb” part and you replied only in that context. Three different people didn’t read your statement in that way but they read it in the context of “diverse panels” and “fighting bigotry”. And your statement, in that context, read as if **“there aren’t enough marginalised people in the world that are interesting and qualified to speak at a seminar.”** That isn’t what you intended to say. But it is how **three of us originally read it.** Which is why I invoked Mein Kampf. To make the original “fight against bigotry” more clearer for you. I didn’t do it as a distraction, or to bait you. ---
**Author:** ![urbanredneck2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/5f8ce5/32.png) [@urbanredneck2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/urbanredneck2)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2020, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676/409 "2020-08-18T14:43:29Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > “My methods” worked quite well in 2018, actually, when they were mixed with many other methods. Which is what I advocate - not a single rhetorical strategy, but all possible rhetorical strategies. It’s going to happen anyway - the masses on social media can’t be controlled. So let’s embrace that, and send strong messages from strong voices who have skill at each of these strategies. The way you write “my methods” seems to me you have some kind of professional background in writing other people off or you have some personal stake in shutting others down. You sure spend alot of time on here going after others who disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2020, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676/410 "2020-08-18T14:47:31Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I don’t care if you answer, I care that you gave a shitty, misleading answer. …what was misleading about it? > [@DemonTree](#): > > They are campaigning for a **whole hell of a lot more** than ‘be kind’, something you very well know. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > You asked the question what trans people - or the very well funded organisations representing them - are actually asking for? And the reality is that at its heart, what they want if for you to be kind. **Yes, there are asking for other things as well.** But kindness? Respect? Understanding? That would be a real meaningful place to start. Of course I **know that**. I acknowledged that. I literally said that. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2020, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676/411 "2020-08-18T14:51:20Z")
What I said: > [@QuickSilver](#): > > That’s fine. But you should know that if you insist on such pristine standards, **you are going to run out of interesting, qualified speakers faster than you might imagine.** What you heard: > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And your statement, in that context, read as if **“there aren’t enough marginalised people in the world that are interesting and qualified to speak at a seminar.”** What I further clarified: > [@QuickSilver](#): > > Meaning, you will be hard pressed to find an abundance of smart people who at some point or another haven’t said something dumb. Everybody makes mistakes – It’s human nature. . The younger they are, the more likely it will be that there’s online record of them doing so. And somebody will dig it up because that’s how things seem to be now. How they’ve always been. So let’s all try to stay grounded in reality, not some idealized fantasy of how you wish things would be if only we could just get rid of all the people who made the mistake of saying things you disagree with. What you then realized I meant: > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > That isn’t what you intended to say. But it is how **three of us originally read it.** So what are we talking about then? ---
**Author:** ![urbanredneck2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/5f8ce5/32.png) [@urbanredneck2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/urbanredneck2)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2020, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676/412 "2020-08-18T14:52:56Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > I don’t know the particulars behind this situation but I will say this. > > It increasingly looks like BLM has been hijacked by people more interested in being nuisances than agents of positive political change. I see little evidence most of the protestors truly have social justice in mind. It is difficult for me to say this as a black woman, but BLM protestors are not whom I’d want associated with me if cops did me wrong. The movement needs actual leadership. I think the NAACP is a much better civil rights group with decades of experience fighting for racial justice. BLM started out as a decent motto (commitment to social and economic equality) but has turned into something crazy whom I cant see whom they are helping. I guess NAACP doesnt look good on a logo painted on the street? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2020, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676/413 "2020-08-18T15:00:36Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > What I further clarified: …your clarification is all about “people making mistakes.” Which is precisely my point. It says nothing about bigotry. Its not about “digging something up.” It isn’t about people “saying something they disagree with.” Its about bigotry. And arguing that “The Bell Curve made some good points” is a giant red flashing light. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > What you then realized I meant: You still don’t get it. There is a difference between “making a dumb. youthful mistake” and arguing that The Bell Curve or Mein Kampf “made some good points.” You’ve conflated the two. Lets forget about the Bell Curve or Mein Kampf: if you have a potential speaker who is entertaining, clever, the smartest man in the room, but also happens to be racist as fuck, are you obligated to book him just because he really really knows his stuff? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2020, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676/414 "2020-08-18T15:01:05Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Is that a ‘no’, then? I’m already considering alternatives, and most of them, rhetorically speaking, I’m in favor of. The consideration of alternatives never stops. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2020, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676/415 "2020-08-18T15:01:36Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > Tell that to female athletes who are losing to male athletes who have identified their way into women’s sports. > > Tell that to women who have cancer cells growing in their crevixes right now but won’t know this until too late because health information is too cryptic for those with minimal health literacy. > > Tell that to women who won’t be able to win lawsuits for sex-based discrimination in the workplace because their employer can point to plenty of successful “women“ to counter their claim of unfair treatment. Never mind if these “women” have beards and flow in and out of their gender identity depending on the season. Female = anyone who identifies as one, right These are all problems, real or imagined, that can be addressed as problems without denying people the identity they most identify with. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2020, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676/416 "2020-08-18T15:03:05Z")
> [@urbanredneck2](#): > > The way you write “my methods” seems to me you have some kind of professional background in writing other people off or you have some personal stake in shutting others down. You sure spend alot of time on here going after others who disagree. I do enjoy arguing on the internet! You got me pegged there. I’m not sure why this is interesting for this conversation, though. ---
**Author:** ![urbanredneck2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/5f8ce5/32.png) [@urbanredneck2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/urbanredneck2)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2020, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676/417 "2020-08-18T15:04:34Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The very fact that they can live in a nice, quiet neighborhood in which they can call the cops to stop a civil rights demonstration is part and parcel of the racist society we live in. They should have not called the cops and for once supported their fellow humans. So your basically saying the problem was they didnt stand outside and cheer them on or salute them or something? Dang, how DARE they? This reminds me so much of old movies where Hitler Youth were marching thru city streets and those people who didnt immediately stand up and give the nazi salute were removed. Mark my words people will soon be required to have special signs in there yards or there house and those not complying will get egged or vandalized and the left will be telling us that they are nazis or fascists and deserve it. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2020, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676/418 "2020-08-18T15:05:24Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Lets forget about the Bell Curve or Mein Kampf: if you have a potential speaker who is entertaining, clever, the smartest man in the room, but also happens to be racist as fuck, are you obligated to book him just because he really really knows his stuff? This was originally directed to @Ascenray, but I think this is applicable to your question: > [@QuickSilver](#): > > Who would you invite to speak at a conference about mapping the human genome? Would you invite Francis Collins and James Watson, or would you invite some lesser well known scientist who are not white, not male, not observant Catholic who believes the universe is created by an intelligent designer, and didn’t say some pretty wrong things about racial traits? > > Would you dismiss Francis Collins’ and James Watson’s contributions to the sciences? Deny them further recognition? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2020, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676/419 "2020-08-18T15:05:27Z")
This thread has done some interesting things – it’s brought @urbanredneck2 together with @DemonTree and @YWTF! That’s pretty remarkable. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2020, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676/420 "2020-08-18T15:06:20Z")
I consider that to be progress for @urbanredneck2. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2020, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676/421 "2020-08-18T15:07:48Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > How do you suppose we prevent men from identifying as women? I’m interested in how you envision us letting in one kind of male person in without letting in the other. The honor system? Considering that the honor system is exactly how we have always prevented men from going into the women’s room, let’s continue doing that. ---
**Author:** ![urbanredneck2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/5f8ce5/32.png) [@urbanredneck2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/urbanredneck2)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2020, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676/422 "2020-08-18T15:08:29Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I do enjoy arguing on the internet! You got me pegged there. I’m not sure why this is interesting for this conversation, though. And you are darn good at it. You write better than I do and are good at defending your points. You must also keep careful notes and files on everyone to because you are always so quick to point out whatever we posted. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676.md?page=22)