# So-Called “Cancel Culture”, Social Media and Bullying **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 9, 2020, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676 "2020-08-09T23:29:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2020, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676/483 "2020-08-18T20:52:34Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > JKR “poured herself” into her tweet? Is that how she came up with 3 mocking misspellings of “woman”? So what? [Feminists have been abusing the spelling of that word for years](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Womyn#:~:text=The%20word%20womyn%20is%20one,%2C%20and%20wimmin%20(plural).). ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2020, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676/484 "2020-08-18T21:18:55Z")
I’m not sure your point. My point was in response to the idea that she had “poured herself” into that tweet. If your point is only that she had even less work to do by copying off of others, then that only makes the idea that she had put her heart and soul into it even weaker. Though I must say, I’ve not seen feminists use “Wumben? Wimpund? Woomud?” So, maybe there was some creativity involved in her rather hateful statement. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2020, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676/485 "2020-08-18T21:38:27Z")
I think discussion about JKR are best left to the other thread on the subject. I doubt my opinions offer any better insight than what others have already shared and my reason for bringing it up tangentially in this thread was simply to highlight the overwhelming response she received by those who disagreed with her on the matter. More so, how she was vilified for expressing a controversial opinion that some, like you, find hateful. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2020, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676/486 "2020-08-18T21:48:38Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > More so, how she was vilified for expressing a controversial opinion that some, like you, find hateful. You can decide whether or not you think that denying the existence of, and encouraging the mocking and bullying of a minority group is hateful or not. I personally think it is, and should be called out. You evidently think that it is not, and should be left alone without remark. That’s the democracy of the public sphere. If I see something hateful, especially by a public figure, I should be allowed to call it out. That’s the whole point of this thread, you don’t think that I should. Those who complain about cancel culture are the ones who are most wanting to restrict the speech of others. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2020, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676/487 "2020-08-18T22:25:22Z")
That’s not what I’m saying at all though. I frankly haven’t made up my mind about where I stand with respect to JKR’s views. Where I’m reasonably confident in my standing is that while JKR may be wrong in her position on trans issues, and while Sam Harrison may be wrong on race/IQ issues, I do not know either of them to be racists or bigots and they ought not be treated as such. And furthermore, me giving them this level of consideration does not make me an enabler of such views. Would you agree? ETA: Can I ask if you read JKR’s letter? If so, did you find it hateful or mocking? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2020, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676/488 "2020-08-19T01:04:14Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > ETA: Can I ask if you read JKR’s letter? If so, did you find it hateful or mocking? You mean the letter that she had co-signed by a bunch of people? No, not hateful and mocking, but condescending, whiny, and disingenuous. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2020, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676/489 "2020-08-19T01:09:05Z")
I really like John Oliver, I watch pretty much every show. One time, he had a segment on nuclear power with which I had some disagreements. I actually wrote an email to the show about my criticisms. It was polite, but very critical. I don’t think he’s a horrible person, but I do think he’s wrong on this subject. (I never heard back BTW.) Was that cancel culture? If there were a hundred people that shared the same opinion with the show, would that be? A thousand? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Conrad\_Shadowdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ea924/32.png) [@Dr.Conrad\_Shadowdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Conrad_Shadowdale)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2020, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676/490 "2020-08-19T01:52:37Z")
It’s my OP, so there is somewhat of a pride of ownership in this ugly spawn. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2020, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676/491 "2020-08-19T05:03:16Z")
**Moderator Note** Apologies for not getting to this thread sooner. Been busy. This thread has gone off the rails more than once, but since it seems to have put itself back on track it’s probably best to just let it keep going. Let’s all try to focus on the actual topic of this thread though. If you want to discuss any of the side issues that have come up, please take those to another thread. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2020, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676/492 "2020-08-19T08:40:12Z")
> [@Delayed\_Reflex](#): > > > [@Acsenray](#): > > > > Or is “erased” being trotted out as a scare word because it sounds very Stalinist? > > The meaning of “erasure” is clearly evolving in today’s usage of the word. What are your thoughts on people saying that denying someone’s gender identify is trans erasure? Is that a scare word meant to evoke imagery of trans people being whisked away to the gulags? > > > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > > > > [@DemonTree](#): > > > > > > > You know that cancelling is basically hundreds, thousands or millions of people piling on and calling the victim a horrible person, right? I want to know why you don’t consider this to have harmed them. Do you believe “sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me”? > > > > > I think such harm is trivial for wealthy and influential people with tens of millions of fans. > > First off, I think it’s unlikely that being rich and influential somehow makes you more immune to verbal assaults than poor irrelevant people. Would you similarly discount the seriousness of physical assault against someone just because they are rich? “Oh, it’s no big deal that George Clooney was stabbed by someone, he’s rich and can easily afford good health care.” Unless your stance is actually that nobody could really feel any negative effects from millions of people calling them horrible? Or are you assuming that having a lot of people also supporting you somehow negates the harm caused by other people calling you horrible names? If so, how can anyone be harmed by being called a racial epithet when the majority of society would have their back by repudiating that behaviour? > > > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > > > > [@DemonTree](#): > > > > > > > So if people post racist jokes about a wealthy and influential celebrity on twitter, is that also a trivial harm? > > > > > To the celebrity, perhaps, but it’s real harm to broader society. > > So calling a celebrity the n-word in private only causes trivial harm, because it’s not viewed by broader society? Would calling a random homeless person the n-word somehow cause greater harm than calling a celebrity one? They seem equally harmful to me. > > Look, I agree that many celebrities aren’t likely to suffer any significant financial harm from “cancellation”. But it seems like they can still suffer from psychological harm (Taylor Swift, Nick Cannon, Natalie Wynn among others have come out and described their experiences with it). It sounds like you are saying psychological harm isn’t a particularly big deal. Thank you! This is exactly what I was trying to say. ---
**Author:** ![YWTF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/d07c76/32.png) [@YWTF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWTF)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2020, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676/493 "2020-08-19T11:07:43Z")
Given the way your typical celebrity is wired (many seek fame for external validation and a need to feel popular and well-liked), I would say public opinion probably affects them tremendously. Much more, in fact, than it does a nobody who is happily living in obscurity with their two cats and a Netflix subscription. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2020, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676/494 "2020-08-19T11:10:26Z")
Rich people and celebrities don’t need my help or protection from the potential disapproval of the public. I’m not talking assault, but just disapproval - i.e. cancelling. They’ll be okay, even if they whine about it. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2020, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676/495 "2020-08-19T11:49:41Z")
Of course not. I spent some time last night digging into the Harris/Murray controversy. I’ve come to think that Harris should have taken a critical stance of Murray’s conclusions. I think he should take the opportunity to re-think his position and I hope he will. However, I do not believe him to be a racist – simply wrong-headed. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2020, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676/496 "2020-08-19T11:50:37Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Rich people and celebrities don’t need my help or protection from the potential disapproval of the public. I’m not talking assault, but just disapproval - i.e. cancelling. They’ll be okay, even if they whine about it. So if an anonymous nobody misgenders a celebrity in a private message, it’s nbd? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2020, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676/497 "2020-08-19T11:57:08Z")
It feels like you’re fishing for some sort of gotcha moment rather than making an actual argument. I’m making broad statements about society and what our priorities should be - it doesn’t mean that being obnoxious and bigoted is okay. It’s not, but there’s still no significant big problem in society of people sending obnoxious private messages to celebrities. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2020, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676/498 "2020-08-19T12:08:31Z")
> [@YWTF](#): > > Given the way your typical celebrity is wired (many seek fame for external validation and a need to feel popular and well-liked), I would say public opinion probably affects them tremendously. Much more, in fact, than it does a nobody who is happily living in obscurity with their two cats and a Netflix subscription. There has always been an unhealthy relationship between the public and celebrities. The public invests too much time and emotion in celebrity worship and the public is way to eager to turn on the celebrity when they reveal something they don’t like. I’m not even sure the same people who most admire the celebrity are always the same people who are most vocal in tearing them down. It’s a very unhealthy relationship based on idolization, envy and resentment. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2020, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676/499 "2020-08-19T12:23:58Z")
It’s worth noting that a person can act like an asshole without it being part of some oppressive social movement, and that a person can inadvertently reinforce an oppressive social movement without intentionally being an asshole. And it’s possible to mistreat someone wealthy, and it’s part of an oppressive social movement, and it also doesn’t have nearly as big an effect on them as it’d have on someone with less power. All these “BUT WHAT IF YOU’RE TRANSPHOBIC TOWARD A RICH TRANSWOMAN HUH HUH DID I GOTCHA GOOD” questions rely on blurring over these distinctions. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2020, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676/500 "2020-08-19T12:36:25Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > it doesn’t mean that being obnoxious and bigoted is okay. It’s not, but there’s still no significant big problem in society of people sending obnoxious private messages to celebrities. You can’t continue it insist that threats of violence are never okay while on the other hand dismissing that there is a significant problem when celebrities claim that they and their families receive these threats. Sure, they have the means to hire security or move without it entirely ruining their lives. But let’s not forget what we’re really talking about. What we’re talking about is the danger in the kind of online mob mentality that aggressively punishes people regardless of status and privilege. I know it’s hard to imagine doing anything to become the target of that kind of public opprobrium. Most people don’t set out to paint a target on their own chest. But what if you wrote a book that caused people to turn on you? Just as an example - not trying to start anything! - something in the nature of how you inadvertently said in the JKR thread that caused some people to be hurt by what you said. What if you began to receive threats against your wife and your child? Would you hand wave it away as just criticism? I mean, you’d re-examine your position and apologize for whatever you may have done wrong, of course; You’d offer explanation or justification, right? Wouldn’t that be whining, though? Would it make you feel better about your circumstances if that controversial book you wrote made you financially successful? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2020, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676/501 "2020-08-19T12:39:07Z")
Yes, what this jumble of examples fails to establish is: (1) What exactly is this “cancel culture”? How are we defining it? What are its characteristics? What are its origins? And how is it different from anything else that came before this cancel culture purportedly came into being? Jon Ronson’s descriptions of online shaming describe a certain phenomenon, but not everything that’s mentioned in threads like this seem to fit into that, and don’t distinguish from the same kind of free speech that people have always engaged in but now have a better chance of being heard. (2) That this is some new threat to individual freedom that is being imposed on society by “the left” ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2020, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676/502 "2020-08-19T12:46:37Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It feels like you’re fishing for some sort of gotcha moment rather than making an actual argument. I’m making broad statements about society and what our priorities should be - it doesn’t mean that being obnoxious and bigoted is okay. It’s not, but there’s still no significant big problem in society of people sending obnoxious private messages to celebrities. I suspect that if it came up in any other context that a bunch of people were sending racist/misogynistic/homophobic etc messages to a celebrity, you would be the first to condemn the senders and certainly would not be accusing the celebrity of whining. Your attitude here seems very inconsistent with how you usually respond. I can’t prove what I said above, but the fact you dodged the question is an answer of a sort. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-called-cancel-culture-social-media-and-bullying/917676.md?page=26)