# So can Ashcroft just suspend Habeus Corpus? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 4, 2003, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-can-ashcroft-just-suspend-habeus-corpus/166535 "2003-04-04T20:04:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-can-ashcroft-just-suspend-habeus-corpus/166535/1 "2003-04-04T20:04:42Z")
This kind of shit has been going on for a while now: locking up people who are considered “material witnesses”. Arrested but not charged, held indefinitely without being accused of any crime. I don’t know if this comes under the “Patriot Act”, but 9/11, and our apparently perpetual “time of war”, have definitely been used as an excuse for what seems to me a terrible abuse of power. (Coincidentally, I’m right now hearing on the radio that today, April 4, is the day Winston Smith starts his diary in _1984_. Sorry if that seems like a non-sequitor.) Anyway, this hasn’t gotten much attention in the press; I thought that would change when it started happening to American citizens. Now it has: [Link to CNN](http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/04/03/engineer.detained.ap/index.html), but I’m not hearing much about it. Maybe that’s because this guy, Maher “Mike” Hawash, is a naturalized citizen, and an Arab-American. Maybe when a white native-born citizen with an Anglo-Saxon name – say, a guy named Christian White – is arrested and held in solitary confinement for weeks without being charged with a crime, there’ll be some coverage and some hard questions for people like John Ashcroft about when they’re going to either charge Christian White with a crime or let him go home to all the little Whites. (I put this in the Pit out of concern that when I talk about Ashcroft, the words “insane motherfucker” might come out. Oops.) Anway, for any lawyers here, what’s the deal with “material witnesses”? How long can the cops (or in this case, the FBI) hold you without charging you with something? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-can-ashcroft-just-suspend-habeus-corpus/166535/2 "2003-04-04T20:44:56Z")
The statute at question is 18 U.S.C. Section 3144, which states: > [@](#): > > If it appears from an affidavit filed by a party that the testimony of a person is material in a criminal proceeding, and if it is shown that it may become impracticable to secure the presence of the person by subpoena, a judicial officer may order the arrest of the person and treat the person in accordance with the provisions of section 3142 of this title. No material witness may be detained because of inability to comply with any condition of release if the testimony of such witness can adequately be secured by deposition, and if further detention is not necessary to prevent a failure of justice. Release of a material witness may be delayed for a reasonable period of time until the deposition of the witness can be taken pursuant to the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure. This statute allows the government to detain somebody who has been shown to be a material witness in a case indefinitely until the case is resolved. It’s application has been held constitutional in cases where a defendant has been charged and is awaiting trial. In Bacon v. United States, 449 F.2d 933, 937-941 (9th Cir. 1971), the Ninth Circuit allowed this type of detention to be used to hold a material witness in anticipation of his testimony before a Grand Jury. However, in United States v. Awadallah III, 202 F.Supp.2d 55 (S.D.N.Y. 2002), a Judge ruled that the material witness statute should not apply to grand jury investigations. Awadallah was recently criticized in In re Application of U.S. for a Material Witness Warrant, 213 F.Supp.2d 287, 288+ (S.D.N.Y. Jul 11, 2002). I believe both these cases are currently on appeal. Finally, The Supreme Court has stated that a statute which permits indefinite detention of people, except in such cases as a criminal conviction or a finding that a person poses a threat to himself or others as the result of mental illness, would raise a serious constitutional problem under the Due Process Clause. Just from my quick research, it sounds like this kind of detention is allowed, but each day the detention goes on without a grand jury being called, the more likely it will be found to be unconstitutional. And just so you know, Awadallah was an Arab-American, and not a “white native-born citizen with an Anglo-Saxon name, so kindly knock it off with the race baiting. It demeans your argument. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-can-ashcroft-just-suspend-habeus-corpus/166535/3 "2003-04-04T20:56:35Z")
Thanks for the enlightening legal info. However, it’s not race-baiting. I wasn’t talking about treatment in the courts, but treatment in the press; I think the case would be getting more attention if Hawash were not Arab-American. Also, if some of the stuff I’ve heard on talk radio is any indication, there are plenty of people prejudiced against anybody with an Islamic name, and also against immigrants, even ones who have gained citizenship. (I might be wrong about this, which would be good.) I should have mentioned that after two weeks Hawash hadn’t even been questioned. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-can-ashcroft-just-suspend-habeus-corpus/166535/4 "2003-04-04T20:59:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Baldwin \* > \*\*Also, if some of the stuff I’ve heard on talk radio is any indication . . . \*\* Dear Og, I hope not. ---
**Author:** ![zigaretten](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/91b2a8/32.png) [@zigaretten](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zigaretten)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-can-ashcroft-just-suspend-habeus-corpus/166535/5 "2003-04-04T23:44:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Baldwin \* > …I think the case would be getting more attention if Hawash were not Arab-American… From the Compendium of Federal Justice Statistics, 1999: > [@](#): > > During 1999, **109,857** offenders were arrested by Federal law enforcement agencies for violations of Federal law. A third of all arrests were for public order offenses; 29% for drug offenses; 15% for property offenses; 14% for supervision violations; 4% for violent offenses; and **4% to secure and safeguard a material witness**. Four percent works out to about 4,400 people arrested as material witnesses in 1999 by the Feds alone (remember that State and local authorities can also arrest people as material witnesses). You may well ask if this arrest would have received more attention if Mr. Hawash wasn’t an Arab-American, but I tend to suspect that if Mr. Hawash wasn’t an Arab-American it would have received no attention at all. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-can-ashcroft-just-suspend-habeus-corpus/166535/6 "2003-04-05T00:54:30Z")
The Supreme Court has ignored Habeus Corpus before. The President just has to ask “pretty please?” ---
**Author:** ![sperfur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9adbd/32.png) [@sperfur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sperfur)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-can-ashcroft-just-suspend-habeus-corpus/166535/7 "2003-04-05T01:18:49Z")
[Robin Williams] You have to remember - John Ashcroft is a man who lost to a dead man in Missouri. Can’t forget that. Choices in Missouri were: John Ashcroft…dead man. People in Missouri went, “I’m sorry, John. The dead man scares me less than you do.” [/Robin Williams] ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-can-ashcroft-just-suspend-habeus-corpus/166535/8 "2003-04-05T21:58:18Z")
Didn’t the Supreme Court later rule that Lincoln doing this was an unConstitutional act? ---
**Author:** ![j.c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@j.c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j.c)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2003, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-can-ashcroft-just-suspend-habeus-corpus/166535/9 "2003-04-06T05:45:48Z")
Thanks for the thorough answer, Hamlet. At this point I wouldn’t be surprised if John Ashcroft decreed I have to wear a push-up bra and wear my hear like Betty Grable’s, so it’s nice to have some facts to calm me down. ---
**Author:** ![JohnBckWLD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JohnBckWLD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnBckWLD)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-can-ashcroft-just-suspend-habeus-corpus/166535/10 "2003-08-14T01:25:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Baldwin \* > **This kind of shit has been going on for a while now: locking up people who are considered “material witnesses”…Maybe that’s because this guy, Maher “Mike” Hawash, is a naturalized citizen, and an Arab-American. Maybe when a white native-born citizen with an Anglo-Saxon name – say, a guy named Christian White – is arrested and held in solitary confinement for weeks without being charged with a crime, there’ll be some coverage and some hard questions for people like John Ashcroft about when they’re going to either charge Christian White with a crime or let him go home to all the little Whites…(I put this in the Pit out of concern that when I talk about Ashcroft, the words “insane motherfucker” might come out. Oops.)…** Maybe the shit you ranted about back in April wasn’t shit after all. Maybe that insane “asshole Ashcroft” and his band of of evil _browner-than-me hating Nazis_ over at the DOJ knew a little bit more about what that lying, no-good, anti-western, inhuman, infidel-hating pile of spunk than you did. [Your beloved martyr, Maher Hawash (the Paelstinian version of Mumia Abu-Jamal) pleaded guilty to conspiring to help the Taliban and copped a plea in exchange for dropping other charges against him.](http://www.katu.com/news/story.asp?ID=59857) Doesn’t sound like the actions of an innocent, American citizen to me. You can continue to claim he was railroaded by the evil, American, white power structure here if you wish…you’re just going to have to modify your conspiracy theory to include: 1. Prosecutorial brain-washing and 2. Secret arm twisting techniques that forced this model citizen to confess to something he didn’t do. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-can-ashcroft-just-suspend-habeus-corpus/166535/11 "2003-08-14T01:35:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JohnBckWLD \* > [Your beloved martyr, Maher Hawash (the Paelstinian version of Mumia Abu-Jamal) pleaded guilty to conspiring to help the Taliban and copped a plea in exchange for dropping other charges against him.](http://www.katu.com/news/story.asp?ID=59857) > > Doesn’t sound like the actions of an innocent, American citizen to me. Looks to me like the OP was initially complaining that the guy was being held without being charged with any crime, questioned, etc., for an indefinite length of time, and suggesting that no one was paying any attention in the media because the guy’s of Arab descent. I don’t see any claims of innocence being made. Thanks for the knee-jerk, though. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-can-ashcroft-just-suspend-habeus-corpus/166535/12 "2003-08-14T06:13:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JohnBckWLD \* > \*\* Doesn’t sound like the actions of an innocent, American citizen to me. > > You can continue to claim he was railroaded by the evil, American, white power structure here if you wish…you’re just going to have to modify your conspiracy theory to include: > > 1. Prosecutorial brain-washing > and > 2. Secret arm twisting techniques that forced this model citizen to confess to something he didn’t do. \*\* Well, that kind of secret arm twisting isn’t exactly unheard of. [http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/4791670.htm](http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/4791670.htm) [http://innocenceproject.org/causes/falseconfessions.php](http://innocenceproject.org/causes/falseconfessions.php) [http://truth.boisestate.edu/jcaawp/9901/9901.pdf](http://truth.boisestate.edu/jcaawp/9901/9901.pdf) [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/metro/md/princegeorges/government/police/confess/](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/metro/md/princegeorges/government/police/confess/) [http://www.amnestyusa.org/amnestynow/false\_confessions.html](http://www.amnestyusa.org/amnestynow/false_confessions.html) [http://www.law.northwestern.edu/depts/clinic/wrongful/documents/FalseConfRpt1.htm](http://www.law.northwestern.edu/depts/clinic/wrongful/documents/FalseConfRpt1.htm) [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk\_news/wales/1000157.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/1000157.stm) ad many, many more. The confession isn’t the definitive end to the issue and it never _really_ was. That’s not to say this guy isn’t guilty. But it’s not that hard to get a confession out of innocent people. ---
**Author:** ![Drastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Drastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drastic)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-can-ashcroft-just-suspend-habeus-corpus/166535/13 "2003-08-14T07:06:13Z")
I’m pretty sure the lawyers among the Teeming Millions can confirm that habeus corpus only applies to innocent people. ---
**Author:** ![RexDart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@RexDart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RexDart)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-can-ashcroft-just-suspend-habeus-corpus/166535/14 "2003-08-14T07:16:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sperfur \* > \*\*[Robin Williams] > > You have to remember - John Ashcroft is a man who lost to a dead man in Missouri. Can’t forget that. Choices in Missouri were: John Ashcroft…dead man. People in Missouri went, “I’m sorry, John. The dead man scares me less than you do.” > > [/Robin Williams] \*\* Though, strictly speaking, we were voting for a dead man, really we were voting for the dead man’s wife. I don’t know if that’s much better, but there it is. Jean Carnahan is, thus far, the only Democrat I ever voted for in an election, so that should show what I think of Ashcroft and the latest of his anti-liberty toadies they threw out there (Jim “No” Talent.) Of course, IMHO we could replace the entire government with dead people and we’d end up with a much better country. Dead people have a really tough time fucking things up, due to the handicap of being dead. And I echo **Guin** ’s remark. I haven’t taken Con Law yet (schedule problems, so I had to take it 3rd year) but I also thought there had been some backlash to Abe Lincoln’s paranoid tyranny in which we settled the fact that we can’t just go around suspending habeus corpus no matter how admirable the goal. ---
**Author:** ![Read\_Neck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e19b73/32.png) [@Read\_Neck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Read_Neck)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-can-ashcroft-just-suspend-habeus-corpus/166535/15 "2003-08-14T07:38:47Z")
I don’t understand all the flap about Ashcroft. Ronnie Raygun made the Bill of Rights null and void with the [R.I.C.O](http://www.outlawsmc.com/act.html) Act. Yea,strange cite, but these guys are experts. ---
**Author:** ![DasUnterMensch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DasUnterMensch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DasUnterMensch)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-can-ashcroft-just-suspend-habeus-corpus/166535/16 "2003-08-14T07:56:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by j.c. \* > \*\*At this point I wouldn’t be surprised if John Ashcroft decreed I have to wear a push-up bra and wear my hear like Betty Grable’s \*\* What if I were to ask nicely? ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-can-ashcroft-just-suspend-habeus-corpus/166535/17 "2003-08-14T13:20:17Z")
_Posted by JohnBckWLD:_ > [@](#): > > You can continue to claim he was railroaded by the evil, American, white power structure here if you wish…you’re just going to have to modify your conspiracy theory to include: > > 1. Prosecutorial brain-washing > and > 2. Secret arm twisting techniques that forced this model citizen to confess to something he didn’t do. Wow! You brought my little thread back after four months! That really is buck wild! And, you’re buck wrong! I never said I thought the dude was innocent. I was talking about the rights of the accused, which are not affected by whether the accused is guilty or not. And it’s not a conspiracy theory, just complaints about stuff the DOJ is doing. ---
**Author:** ![cole\_burner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@cole\_burner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cole_burner)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-can-ashcroft-just-suspend-habeus-corpus/166535/18 "2003-08-14T13:27:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Baldwin \* > > And, you’re buck wrong! I never said I thought the dude was innocent. I was talking about the rights of the accused, which are not affected by whether the accused is guilty or not. And it’s not a conspiracy theory, just complaints about stuff the DOJ is doing. Yeah! Even if the guy is guilty, so what? better let him free so he can take some pilot’s lessons. Asshole. ---
**Author:** ![ElwoodCuse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/edb3f5/32.png) [@ElwoodCuse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElwoodCuse)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-can-ashcroft-just-suspend-habeus-corpus/166535/19 "2003-08-14T13:47:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cole burner \* > \*\*Yeah! Even if the guy is guilty, so what? better let him free so he can take some pilot’s lessons. > > Asshole. \*\* First of all, what the OP is complaining about is what occurs BEFORE we are sure of the guilt/innocence of the suspect. Innocent until proven guilty, remember? And second, the OP does not say we should have let him go, merely that if we were confident that he had done something wrong, then he should have simply been charged with the crime. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-can-ashcroft-just-suspend-habeus-corpus/166535/20 "2003-08-14T17:38:31Z")
Due process is one of the things that separate a representative republic from a dictatorship. It takes a strong and confident nation to maintain due process in the face of a virulent threat like terrorism; I believe we’re strong enough. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-can-ashcroft-just-suspend-habeus-corpus/166535.md?page=2)