# So, Clearly, the Democrats Are Dead **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 3, 2010, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320 "2010-11-03T12:45:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320/41 "2010-11-03T14:39:05Z")
**Bricker** , you don’t have any political aspirations, do you? ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320/42 "2010-11-03T14:43:29Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I agree with your point regarding what **Wesley** said, too. The Democrats knew the Civil Rights Act was going to lose them the South for generations, and they didn’t repeal that either. Not that HCR is the Civil Rights Act, or even close to it, but unless it’s a bad law, they’re not going to give up on it when so many congresscritters lost their seats by doing the right thing. I will be one of the 30 million additional people getting health insurance who didn’t have it before. I deeply admire those Congressmen who were willing to lose their seats in order to do the right thing. The light of history will shine favorably upon them. ---
**Author:** ![Sateryn76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Sateryn76](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sateryn76)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320/43 "2010-11-03T14:49:58Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > I will be one of the 30 million additional people getting health insurance who didn’t have it before. I deeply admire those Congressmen who were willing to lose their seats in order to do the right thing. The light of history will shine favorably upon them. I will be soundly screwed, and see my healthcare and insurance costs going up by at least $400 per month. I voted straight Pub for the first time in my life, and that’s why. I am nowhere near “rich” It all depends on where you’re coming from. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320/44 "2010-11-03T14:50:55Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > **Bricker** , you don’t have any political aspirations, do you? Not really. At one time I thought I might try for a local seat on my city’s council, but I think I’m cured. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320/45 "2010-11-03T14:52:22Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Of course, this assumes that the economy recovers. The good news for him is that all economists assume that it will - the economy goes in cycles - and all he needs to do is catch the economy on the upswing in the Fall of 2012. I would be nice if that were so, but it’s not true that economists assume the economy will be roaring back. Some of us have been saying from the beginning that this not a typical business-cycle recession, and that a Keynesian pump wouldn’t work this time, because the Keynesian solution assumes that a stimulus just has to prevent destruction of productive resources until the business cycle reasserts itself. But in this case, the recession was caused by a fiscal collapse due to an asset bubble popping, which exposed the fact that people had been over-consuming for years and were now burdened with debt that was not balanced by assets. Recessions like this are hard to predict because there haven’t been many of them. The prime example is Japan, which flew high in the 80’s due to a massive real-estate bubble, then went into economic shock when the bubble popped. It’s been more than a decade and a half since that happened, and the Japanese economy has been struggling ever since. This leads a lot of economists to predict a long period of low growth, and permanently high unemployment. If that’s the case, then 2012 will be another interesting election, and will be mostly about who manages to deflect the blame for the next two years of a crappy U.S. economy. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320/46 "2010-11-03T14:55:32Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > I will be soundly screwed, and see my healthcare and insurance costs going up by at least $400 per month. I voted straight Pub for the first time in my life, and that’s why. I am nowhere near “rich” > > It all depends on where you’re coming from. Sorry, dude. I wish they passed single payer so we could reduce health care costs from 17% of GDP to something more like 10%, but single payer wasn’t even on the table. From my perspective, I don’t want to be one of the 45,000 people a year who die because they don’t have access to affordable health care. Hope you understand. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320/47 "2010-11-03T15:04:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Not really. At one time I thought I might try for a local seat on my city’s council, but I think I’m cured. Good, because you’d last a fast five minutes being all reasonable like that. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I would be nice if that were so, but it’s not true that economists assume the economy will be roaring back. > > \ > > This leads a lot of economists to predict a long period of low growth, and permanently high unemployment. You are speaking, in the main, of largely the same group of economists who totally failed to foresee the recession in the first place, so fuck 'em. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320/48 "2010-11-03T15:15:43Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I would be nice if that were so, but it’s not true that economists assume the economy will be roaring back. It doesn’t have to be “roaring back” for Obama to claim that it’s a lot better than it was 4 years ago - and all due to his leadership :). > [@](#): > > But in this case, the recession was caused by a fiscal collapse due to an asset bubble popping, which exposed the fact that people had been over-consuming for years and were now burdened with debt that was not balanced by assets. > […] > This leads a lot of economists to predict a long period of low growth, and permanently high unemployment. Not an economist, but I tend to agree with what seems like the common sense notion that the US has been living beyond its means for years, as evidenced by the budget & trade deficits, and we are doomed to a lower standard of living going forward. But that doesn’t necessarily hurt Obama. “Low” and “high” are relative terms, and if your scenario plays out, then what you call “low growth, and permanently high unemployment” will eventually come to be seen as the new normal, and politicians will be punished or rewarded based on how the economy performs relative to those baselines. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320/49 "2010-11-03T15:16:34Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > What I hope is that Dem leaders wake up and realize that the no one has a mandate, that lots of people disagree or want different things than they do, and they work toward the middle in hopes of finding a solution that most people can agree on. This is either delusional or intellectually dishonest. Obama entered into office with possibly the most conciliatory and open attitude of any president before him. It was quite a difference from Bush, who entered office claiming a mandate to do whatever he wanted when his opponent had actually gotten more votes. The mistake that Obama and the Democrats made was to concede so much ground to the Republicans from the start. Every single piece of legislation was moderated. The health care bill was a _Republican_ bill from a prior Congress. It didn’t matter at all what the Democrats were willing to concede, because no matter what, the Republicans would have kept moving the ball. This has been their basic strategy for years. No matter what the Democrats do, the Republicans will label it as radical and excessively liberal and berate them for failing to moderate their positions. But “moderate” is a moving target that the Republicans will _never_ let the Democrats hit, no matter how far to the right they move. > [@](#): > > The worst, most frightening part of Pelosi’s madhouse was the attitude of “We’re in charge here - we don’t need to debate, and we don’t care if 50% of Americans disagree - we’re going to ram this through at any cost” The debate went on for-freaking-ever. See, this is a perfect example. No matter _what_ Pelosi did, you would have said exactly the same thing. The mistake was letting the debate go on for as long as it did – all that happened was that whatever bill in question – whether stimulus, health care, or financial services reform – got watered down further, and Republicans got more time to play the refs. > [@](#): > > I understand that Dems have strong feelings about issues close to their heart, but so do Pubs - they’re just different feelings. In order to make America the most just, we need to listen, respect and debate all of the positions before deciding on what and how to legislate. When you’re faced with an opposition who deals with absolutely no good faith, what your advice essentially amounts to is “Just give up and let us run things the way we want them, even when you have a majority of the votes.” ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320/50 "2010-11-03T15:22:57Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Obama entered into office with possibly the most conciliatory and open attitude of any president before him. I once saw a great line from Dave Barry, in an article about men & women. He had a bunch about how men and women have all these complaints about each other, and he, the peacemaker, wanted both sides to rise above it. And he ended off with something like “so I’d like to have both sides, men and women, come together and agree, on just how irrational, obstinate and difficult women are”. “Let’s all get together and do things my way” is not bipartisan in any meaningful sense. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320/51 "2010-11-03T15:28:13Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > “Let’s all get together and do things my way” is not bipartisan in any meaningful sense. If that’s what you’re suggesting Obama did, then you’re dreaming. Obama’s mistake was to give any ground at all, thus setting up the Republicans with multiple opportunities to throw bombs. He should have looked to the Bush model – Fuck you, I have the votes, we’re doing what I want. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320/52 "2010-11-03T15:33:23Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > If that’s what you’re suggesting Obama did, then you’re dreaming. Yes, that’s what I’m suggesting. > [@](#): > > He should have looked to the Bush model – Fuck you, I have the votes, we’re doing what I want. He did that. He only gave ground when he didn’t have the votes. The main negotiations over HCR were ultimately internal Democratic negotations among themselves, and as it was they barely got enough support from their own party to get it passed. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320/53 "2010-11-03T15:37:43Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Yes, that’s what I’m suggesting.He did that. He only gave ground when he didn’t have the votes. > > The main negotiations over HCR were ultimately internal Democratic negotations among themselves, and as it was they barely got enough support from their own party to get it passed. Because not one Republican in the senate was honest enough to break cloture. Not one. Every single Republican sitting in the senate during the health care debate marched in blank, unthinking lockstep against a bill that was literally modeled after Republican ideas. It was hard to get all the Democrats to agree on HCR. It was easy to get all Republicans to agree, they wanted to damage Obama more than they wanted to do the work of the people. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320/54 "2010-11-03T15:40:26Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > The main negotiations over HCR were ultimately internal Democratic negotations among themselves The Republicans were not going to vote for the bill _no matter what the outcome_. When one side has no interest in coming to the table, how do you negotiate with them? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320/55 "2010-11-03T15:45:24Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Because not one Republican in the senate was honest enough to break cloture. Not one. Every single Republican sitting in the senate during the health care debate marched in blank, unthinking lockstep This is untrue. Actually several Republicans spent a lot of time negotiating with Baucus on a version of the bill that they could support. But Reid eventually decided to jettison the results of these negotations, and froze them out of future discussions. > [@](#): > > against a bill that was literally modeled after Republican ideas. This is strange. I have no idea what this is about. Actually the problem was the opposite. The whole notion of huge government programs is something that is at the core of what conservatives in this country are opposed to. Even the suggestion that they should support it is already not bipartisan. It’s like if the Republicans started up a bill to shut down Medicaid and food stamps and invited the Democrats to come together, in the most bipartisan way, to work out the details. And then whined about it if they failed to support it. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320/56 "2010-11-03T15:52:29Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > …against a bill that was literally modeled after Republican ideas. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > This is strange. I have no idea what this is about. The Patient Protection & Affordable Care Act was modeled on the [Health Equity and Access Reform Today Act of 1993](http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Stories/2010/February/23/GOP-1993-health-reform-bill.aspx), the Republican alternative to the Clinton HCR plan, and the [Act Providing Access to Affordable, Quality, Accountable Health Care](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts_health_care_reform#Background), the Massachussetts individual mandate plan- a bipartisan effort championed by Mitt Romney. If you really didn’t know this you probably aren’t qualified to comment on the topic. I’m sure, however, that you did know and are being obtuse, for whatever reason. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320/57 "2010-11-03T15:53:05Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > It’s like if the Republicans started up a bill to shut down Medicaid and food stamps and invited the Democrats to come together, in the most bipartisan way, to work out the details. And then whined about it if they failed to support it. Your analogy is false. It’s as if the Republicans started up a bill to shut down Medicaid and food stamps, and invited the Democrats to come together, in the most bipartisan way, to work out the details. The Democrats made it clear they would not support the bill, the Republicans passed it anyway, and then the _Democrats_ whined that the Republicans refused to negotiate or allow sufficient time for debate. If the disagreement is a policy disagreement, then be honest about it. “We hate the health reform bill that you passed” is a perfectly honest criticism. Trying to dress it up as a failure to negotiate or a procedural irregularity is dishonest. “You didn’t give us enough opportunity to kill a bill for which you had the majority of votes” is not an honest criticism. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320/58 "2010-11-03T16:02:55Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > This election is just another confirmation of [selectorate theory](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selectorate_theory). The key point in all of politics is to get reelected. Nothing else is really important on a big enough scale. So we will continue to get behavior geared toward winning over the selectorate and not toward improving the country. Thankfully, those two things often overlap in a democracy. Unfortunately, health care insurance isn’t one of those things. It’s highly unusual for Congressmen to vote their conscience even if it means they’ll lose. But [Profiles in Courage](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profiles_in_Courage) still exist. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320/59 "2010-11-03T16:07:23Z")
Whatevs. I’m a yellow dog Democrat, and I woke up this morning with the same set of expectations for my life, liberty and pursuit of happiness as I did on that Wednesday in 2008. There’s a boatload of things I’m not happy about, but that’s par for the course. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320/60 "2010-11-03T16:11:27Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > If the disagreement is a policy disagreement, then be honest about it. “We hate the health reform bill that you passed” is a perfectly honest criticism. I should say: It would be an honest criticism if it were true. When it is clear that _any_ bill put forth by the Democrats is going to be labeled as radical, socialistic, and too far to the left, even if it is essentially the same bill that the Republicans supported in the past, then it isn’t an honest criticism. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320.md?page=4)