# So, Clearly, the Democrats Are Dead **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 3, 2010, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320 "2010-11-03T12:45:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320/101 "2010-11-03T20:23:35Z")
> [@CJJ](#): > > Really? You dont remember No Child Left Behind, the USA Patriot Act, Sarbanes-Oxley, McCain-Feingold, or the Bankruptcy Reform Act? You don’t recall the formation of the Senate’s “Gang of 14” in May 2005, which compromised the ability of the Democrats to mount a successful filibuster against judicial nominees in exchange for Republicans not invoking the “nuclear option” of limiting Senate rules on the filibuster? You didn’t notice any trends related to [this chart](http://www.senate.gov/pagelayout/reference/cloture_motions/clotureCounts.htm), showing how cloture motions/votes have more than doubled since Republicans moved into the Senate minority in 2006? > > The truth is, the Democrats participated in the legislative process when they were in the minority. Of course they opposed the Republicans, but whetehr you agree with them or not the legislative accomplishments above show that they worked with their counterparts across the aisle to achieve compromises. Conversely, you could look at all the above and conclude that when the Republicans controlled congress they acted in a more bipartisan manner, and made an effort to find legislation that the minority could support. As evidence, you would note that when the Republicans did propose legislation that the Democrats disliked, they opposed it vociferously, e.g. Medicare Reform. If you start from the premise that the Republicans are always the Bad Guys, or that their ideology is extreme, you would naturally draw the conclusions that you do. But that’s circular. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320/102 "2010-11-03T21:10:37Z")
So, how do you explain the rousing silence when the Democrats asked the Republicans what we should do instead? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320/103 "2010-11-03T21:12:00Z")
If this is directed to me, you need to expand a bit. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320/104 "2010-11-03T22:32:10Z")
yes, the skyrocketing use of the filibuster in Republican hands is a dead giveaway … they do not participate as a minority party, only obstruct. Would that the Dems had treated Bush this way. He sure deserved it. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320/105 "2010-11-04T04:43:18Z")
The new house leader Blubbering Boner does not sound like he is interested in meeting in the middle. He acted like he thought he was going to set policy. The Dems have the Executive and the Senate. ---
**Author:** ![CJJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@CJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CJJ)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320/106 "2010-11-04T05:15:02Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Conversely, you could look at all the above and conclude that when the Republicans controlled congress they acted in a more bipartisan manner, and made an effort to find legislation that the minority could support. > > As evidence, you would note that when the Republicans did propose legislation that the Democrats disliked, they opposed it vociferously, e.g. Medicare Reform. As evidence, you would note the provisions of the various helathcare “reforms” proposed by the Republicans during the 2009 debate. Specifically, the Republicans offered no proposal which would expand coverage for the uninsured by more than a token amount–an obvious dealbreaker for Obama. They claimed such a goal was unaffordable, but that doesn’t jibe with the [CBO scoring](http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/108xx/doc10868/12-19-Reid_Letter_Managers_Correction_Noted.pdf) that showed a total deficit reduction of $104 billion (over 10 years) for the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act. Finally, when the Republicans (or their Tea Party surrogates) repeatedly sidetrack the debate with demonstrably false claims of [Medicare cuts](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/23/AR2009082302036.html) and [death](http://politicalcorrection.org/factcheck/200907280007) [panels](http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/08/palin-paints-picture-of-obama-death-panel-giving-thumbs-down-to-trig.html), it’s completely fair to question how seriously they are negotiating. > [@](#): > > If you start from the premise that the Republicans are always the Bad Guys, or that their ideology is extreme, you would naturally draw the conclusions that you do. But that’s circular. Conversely, if you start from the premise that the Republicans are always the good guys, you would naturally draw the conclusions that you imply. The difference is, my interpretation survives Occam’s razor–yours doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320/107 "2010-11-04T05:26:56Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I once saw a great line from Dave Barry, in an article about men & women. He had a bunch about how men and women have all these complaints about each other, and he, the peacemaker, wanted both sides to rise above it. And he ended off with something like “so I’d like to have both sides, men and women, come together and agree, on just how irrational, obstinate and difficult women are”. > > “Let’s all get together and do things my way” is not bipartisan in any meaningful sense. That would almost sell except when you remember that Boehner and McConnell were both preaching the no-compromise party line, that they welcomed micro legislation where if the bill only included areas where Dems came over completely to Republican stands they’d offer support, and Republican withdrawal of support even from legislation that originated with Republican lawmakers. I predict a huge amount of legislative activity from Boehner centered around stuff he knows can’t pass the Senate, especially when McConnell will be over their doing his level best to make sure nothing happens. McConnell’s _stated_ number one priority is making sure Obama is a one term president. They are willing to cause short term harm to the government and people as acceptable collateral damage in exchange for the long term good of having a Republican tri-fecta. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320/108 "2010-11-04T06:21:30Z")
Fuck that, they were elected yesterday! So where’s my job? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320/109 "2010-11-04T11:07:54Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Blubbering Boner Gaah. At least two more years of “Boner” jokes to look forward to. Isn’t there enough to mock the man for without resorting to this? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320/110 "2010-11-04T13:36:05Z")
> [@CJJ](#): > > Specifically, the Republicans offered no proposal which would expand coverage for the uninsured by more than a token amount–an obvious dealbreaker for Obama. They claimed such a goal was unaffordable, but that doesn’t jibe with the [CBO scoring](http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/108xx/doc10868/12-19-Reid_Letter_Managers_Correction_Noted.pdf) that showed a total deficit reduction of $104 billion (over 10 years) for the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act. The supposed deficit reduction comes about through huge tax increases. That doesn’t count as affordable. (IMHO, persistant liberal/Democrat obfuscation about this issue doesn’t speak well of their integrity.) Which is even besides for the fact that the “deficit reduction” is a total fantasy - it’s an accounting gimmick and additionally relies on future events that no one believes it will actually happen. > [@](#): > > Finally, when the Republicans (or their Tea Party surrogates) repeatedly sidetrack the debate with demonstrably false claims of [Medicare cuts](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/23/AR2009082302036.html) and [death](http://politicalcorrection.org/factcheck/200907280007) [panels](http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/08/palin-paints-picture-of-obama-death-panel-giving-thumbs-down-to-trig.html), it’s completely fair to question how seriously they are negotiating. That’s a semantic game. The core of these claims are valid. All politicians use some hyperbolic rhetoric. Even some message board posters, sometimes. 😉 > [@](#): > > Conversely, if you start from the premise that the Republicans are always the good guys, you would naturally draw the conclusions that you imply. The difference is, my interpretation survives Occam’s razor–yours doesn’t. Your first sentence is true, your second isn’t. > [@AlienVessels](#): > > That would almost sell except when you remember that Boehner and McConnell were both preaching the no-compromise party line, that they welcomed micro legislation where if the bill only included areas where Dems came over completely to Republican stands they’d offer support, and Republican withdrawal of support even from legislation that originated with Republican lawmakers. I’m not familiar with what you are talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320/111 "2010-11-04T13:41:39Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Your first sentence is true, your second isn’t.I’m not familiar with what you are talking about. Continually feigning ignorance doesn’t make you look ignorant, you know. ---
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320/112 "2010-11-04T13:41:53Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Gaah. At least two more years of “Boner” jokes to look forward to. And this is a bad thing, why? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320/113 "2010-11-04T13:52:43Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > That’s a semantic game. The core of these claims are valid. All politicians use some hyperbolic rhetoric. Even some message board posters, sometimes. 😉 The core of the “death panel” claim is valid? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320/114 "2010-11-04T14:00:20Z")
Well, surely some sort of panels will be needed… and ultimately, won’t all of us die? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320/115 "2010-11-04T15:08:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Democrats: chin up. You guys have two years to fix your strategy and give it another go. This is just a midterm… 2012 is the prize. NO. A thousand times, NO. What a ridiculous idea. Maybe that’s the way YOUR side thinks, though. The ‘prize’ for us Dems would be getting the economy going and getting people back to work. (I would hope that both parties would have that goal, but I can’t see much evidence that it’s much of a priority among elected Republicans.) Another ‘prize’ would be effective legislation dealing with the U.S. contribution to global warming. A third one would be to take advantage of the current low interest rates and availability of resources to repair and modernize numerous aspects of our infrastructure that we’ve neglected in good times and bad alike. A fourth would be to stop sinking more blood and treasure into nation-building wars where the likelihood of meaningful success is minimal. A fifth would be to acknowledge that overall, immigration makes us as a nation richer rather than poorer, and increase the avenues of legal immigration in accordance. A sixth would be to require all organizations seeking to influence elections or governmental policy to list their major donors (say, all who give more than $5000/year) so that we know who’s trying to influence our government officials and our own votes. A seventh…well, you get the idea. For us Democrats, the ‘prize’ isn’t to get elected; it’s to _change things for the better_. That may be a blind spot for Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320/116 "2010-11-04T15:23:03Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > NO. A thousand times, NO. > > What a ridiculous idea. Maybe that’s the way YOUR side thinks, though. > . > . > . > > A seventh…well, you get the idea. For us Democrats, the ‘prize’ isn’t to get elected; it’s to _change things for the better_. > > That may be a blind spot for Republicans. Wow. BRICKER: Now, remember, craft your resume to each job. Don’t worry about the rejections; the goal is to get the face-to-face interview. That’s the prize. JOB-SEEKING KID THAT LOOKS LIKE RTFIREFLY: What a ridiculous idea! The prize is the job, not the interview. That’s just a necessary step! What a blind spot! JOB-HOLDING YOUNG ADULT THAT ALSO LOOKS LIKE RTFIREFLY: Ha! Madness! The prize is the career, not the individual job. You may change jobs many times, but the career path is the prize. What a short-sighted fool! THIRD GUY THAT **ALSO** LOOKS LIKE RTFIREFLY: What utter rubbish. The PRIZE is the complete, holistic life that a good career allows you to have, able to help support a family, hobbies, charity, travel, and a rich experience of this wonderful world. THAT is the prize, not just a career. BRICKER: Um… guys, maybe ‘prize’ is a context-dependent word that refers to ending milestone of a particular set of steps? Maybe being elected is the prize that allows you to go on and be a force to change things for the better; and maybe changing things for the better is the prize that allows you to enjoy a better country and world. Maybe all of you are focusing a bit myopically on the word ‘prize’ here? ALL THREE, IN UNISON: Yeah, you’re right. BRICKER: Not to worry. Probably just a problem in your cloning growth settings; we’ll fix that glitch in the next set of clones. After all, being able to clone platoons of useful foils for debate purposes is the real prize! ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320/117 "2010-11-04T15:46:19Z")
Now I’m picturing dozens of **Brickers** pouring into Blockbuster to demand copies of the movie _2012._ ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320/118 "2010-11-04T15:46:33Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The core of the “death panel” claim is valid? :rolleyes: Yes, in the sense that inevitable decisions about end-of-life matters will come to rest in the hands of government bureaucrats. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > NO. A thousand times, NO. > > What a ridiculous idea. Maybe that’s the way YOUR side thinks, though. > > The ‘prize’ for us Dems would be getting the economy going and getting people back to work. (I would hope that both parties would have that goal, but I can’t see much evidence that it’s much of a priority among elected Republicans.) > > […] > > For us Democrats, the ‘prize’ isn’t to get elected; it’s to _change things for the better_. > > That may be a blind spot for Republicans. The main reason this type of self-righteous posturing doesn’t repulse even more people than it actually does is because it’s so widely engaged in by politicians on both sides of the aisle that people write it off as just typical political slime. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320/119 "2010-11-04T16:16:37Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Yes, in the sense that inevitable decisions about end-of-life matters will come to rest in the hands of government bureaucrats. Um, no. The claim was based language in the bill that required patients to _discuss_ end of life matters with their doctors. It wasn’t hyperbole; it was a lie. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320/120 "2010-11-04T16:22:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Wow. > > BRICKER: Now, remember, craft your resume to each job. Don’t worry about the rejections; the goal is to get the face-to-face interview. That’s the prize. > > JOB-SEEKING KID THAT LOOKS LIKE RTFIREFLY: What a ridiculous idea! The prize is the job, not the interview. That’s just a necessary step! What a blind spot! > > JOB-HOLDING YOUNG ADULT THAT ALSO LOOKS LIKE RTFIREFLY: Ha! Madness! The prize is the career, not the individual job. You may change jobs many times, but the career path is the prize. What a short-sighted fool! > > THIRD GUY THAT **ALSO** LOOKS LIKE RTFIREFLY: What utter rubbish. The PRIZE is the complete, holistic life that a good career allows you to have, able to help support a family, hobbies, charity, travel, and a rich experience of this wonderful world. THAT is the prize, not just a career. > > BRICKER: Um… guys, maybe ‘prize’ is a context-dependent word that refers to ending milestone of a particular set of steps? Maybe being elected is the prize that allows you to go on and be a force to change things for the better; and maybe changing things for the better is the prize that allows you to enjoy a better country and world. Maybe all of you are focusing a bit myopically on the word ‘prize’ here? > > ALL THREE, IN UNISON: Yeah, you’re right. > > BRICKER: Not to worry. Probably just a problem in your cloning growth settings; we’ll fix that glitch in the next set of clones. After all, being able to clone platoons of useful foils for debate purposes is the real prize! This is all very amusing, but I’m sure you realize that he means merely getting “your guy” elected is not a prize in itself, as it seems many have come to believe. I’m pretty fucking tired of the football game mentality that pervades now, where an election victory is merely a chance to rah-rah and scream “you SUCK!” at the other side for a couple of days. Yes, it provides the same superficial thrill as it does when “your” team (who don’t know who you are, and couldn’t give a shit to save their lives, and are only interested in making money and hopefully landing a bunch of lucrative corporate sponsorships before their knees blow out) scores a big touchdown on game day. If the end result is deadlock, why should anyone give a shit who wins? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-clearly-the-democrats-are-dead/559320.md?page=7)