# So, court ordered cancer treatment anyone? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-court-ordered-cancer-treatment-anyone/497410 "2009-05-23T18:46:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-court-ordered-cancer-treatment-anyone/497410/61 "2009-05-27T02:28:18Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > From a Darwinian viewpoint, I think our society would be better off if we did NOT require this kid to have proper medical treatment. > > Let his wacko mother continue to ‘treat’ him with alternative medicine, and he will be dead soon – before he is old enough to breed and pass on these wacko genes. The fact that he is also mentally deficient is just another reason ot to want him to breed. > > However, as a society, we have decided that requiring parents to properly care for their children, including providing food, clothing, shelter, and medical care is a policy that we want for our society. So we require it, even in cases where the ‘health of the species’ would be better off if we didn’t. This may be the biggest load of ignorant crap I’ve ever seen on these boards. And that’s really saying something because I’ve seen a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-court-ordered-cancer-treatment-anyone/497410/62 "2009-05-27T03:08:09Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > From a Darwinian viewpoint, I think our society would be better off if we did NOT require this kid to have proper medical treatment. > > Let his wacko mother continue to ‘treat’ him with alternative medicine, and he will be dead soon – before he is old enough to breed and pass on these wacko genes. The fact that he is also mentally deficient is just another reason ot to want him to breed. > > However, as a society, we have decided that requiring parents to properly care for their children, including providing food, clothing, shelter, and medical care is a policy that we want for our society. So we require it, even in cases where the ‘health of the species’ would be better off if we didn’t. That is absolutely sick. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-court-ordered-cancer-treatment-anyone/497410/63 "2009-05-27T03:44:03Z")
Is everybody’s sarcasm detector turned off today or something? ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-court-ordered-cancer-treatment-anyone/497410/64 "2009-05-27T04:07:58Z")
> [@Vlad\_Igor](#): > > That 90% figure was not pulled out of thin air. Um, it slightly has been. “Treatment” encompasses a number of things: various pharmaceuticals, possible surgery, and also chemotherapy. The contribution that chemo has to survival is not 100% of that 90%. Noone has dug up what that contribution actually is. ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-court-ordered-cancer-treatment-anyone/497410/65 "2009-05-27T04:17:13Z")
There’s deeper questions at stake, too. Like, should governments swoop in on hunter-gatherer societies because they’re “abusing their kids” with their lack of civilization? Should people who have a fundamental belief that death is a natural and tolerable consequence of life be suppressed? ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-court-ordered-cancer-treatment-anyone/497410/66 "2009-05-27T04:23:02Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Is everybody’s sarcasm detector turned off today or something? Was that sarcasm? I don’t know the poster’s history so it’s impossible to tell. I can say form RL experience that a lot of people actually believe that shit. > [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#): > > The contribution that chemo has to survival is not 100% of that 90%. Noone has dug up what that contribution actually is. I did over in GQ. It’s 35.8% for 5-year survival time, or a 32.2% increased chance of survival over using magic. Not exactly insignificant. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-court-ordered-cancer-treatment-anyone/497410/67 "2009-05-27T04:37:39Z")
> [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#): > > There’s deeper questions at stake, too. Like, should governments swoop in on hunter-gatherer societies because they’re “abusing their kids” with their lack of civilization? We have no HGs under western governnments AFAIK, so it’s a moot point. But in a hypothetical situation if those HGs are members of the society and enjoying all the benfits thereof, then yes. The social contract isn’t pick and mix. You don’t get to enjoy all the benefits of my obigations to you without having equivalent obligations to me. IOW if these HGs want to benefit from my hopsitals, my armies, my roads and so forth then they have to accept my laws as well. If the HGs are truly autonomous and ask nothing from other societies (including defence) then that’s another story. But in the rela world such HGs would last about 3 weeks at the outside before they were killed. > [@](#): > > Should people who have a fundamental belief that death is a natural and tolerable consequence of life be suppressed? No, but they shouldn’t be able to inflict it on their children either. Death is kinda permanent. It’s not like religion or even being overweight where the child can choose to reject his parents beliefs when he comes of age if he finds them harmful. If an adult has that belief they shouldn’t be suppressed. They should be free to teach that belief to their children or anyone else who will listen. They should even be free to live that belief and die a slow, painfully and unnecessary death. What they shouldn’t be free to do is inflict a irreversible decision on their children based on that belief. ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-court-ordered-cancer-treatment-anyone/497410/68 "2009-05-28T18:38:43Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > I did over in GQ. > > It’s 35.8% for 5-year survival time, or a 32.2% increased chance of survival over using magic. Not exactly insignificant. How is that % derived? Ie, in the case of “10% live w/o treatment, 90% with,” would you say all-encompassing treatment gives an 80% boost to survival, or 800%? P.S. can you link me to this other thread? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-court-ordered-cancer-treatment-anyone/497410/69 "2009-05-28T18:48:22Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Is everybody’s sarcasm detector turned off today or something? With some of the crap that’s been going around here lately, it’s kind of hard to tell. ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-court-ordered-cancer-treatment-anyone/497410/70 "2009-05-28T19:00:35Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > No, but they shouldn’t be able to inflict it on their children either. Death is kinda permanent. It’s not like religion or even being overweight where the child can choose to reject his parents beliefs when he comes of age if he finds them harmful. > > If an adult has that belief they shouldn’t be suppressed. They should be free to teach that belief to their children or anyone else who will listen. They should even be free to live that belief and die a slow, painfully and unnecessary death. > > What they shouldn’t be free to do is inflict a irreversible decision on their children based on that belief. That makes sense. But contraception is kind of permanent too. In the end, is “I would have lived a long adult life but died of cancer at 10” so different from “I would have lived a long adult life but I was never born?” Of course, the current wisdom is, “absolutely, by a factor of a million.” This is the trouble with forcing people to do things and having moral resolve. It’s really possible we’re incorrect about the most fundamental questions. So, letting people do their own thing, including living a life completely devoid of civilization together with their kids, is something we should do. By tolerating diverse, seemingly crazy ideas, we can at least know that someone somewhere is right. Death is an extreme example, but there are many others in terms of culture. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-court-ordered-cancer-treatment-anyone/497410/71 "2009-05-28T19:26:08Z")
> [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#): > > That makes sense. But contraception is kind of permanent too. In the end, is “I would have lived a long adult life but died of cancer at 10” so different from “I would have lived a long adult life but I was never born?” Of course, the current wisdom is, “absolutely, by a factor of a million.” Of course there’s a difference. Your question doesn’t even really make sense. How can there be an “I” which is never even _conceived_ (we’re not even talking about abortion here, you said "contraception)? What is it that “never got to be born?” There isn’t even a question of when life begins here. If you’re talking about contraception, you’re talking about no entity or object ever coming into existence at all, so how can it be denie a “chance” at anything? > [@](#): > > This is the trouble with forcing people to do things and having moral resolve. It’s really possible we’re incorrect about the most fundamental questions. So, letting people do their own thing, including living a life completely devoid of civilization together with their kids, is something we should do. By tolerating diverse, seemingly crazy ideas, we can at least know that someone somewhere is right. Death is an extreme example, but there are many others in terms of culture. Adults can make whatever choices they want about their own bodies, but not about their kids’ bodies. Children are not property. You don’t have a right to kill them. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-court-ordered-cancer-treatment-anyone/497410/72 "2009-05-29T01:27:45Z")
> [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#): > > How is that % derived? Ie, in the case of “10% live w/o treatment, 90% with,” would you say all-encompassing treatment gives an 80% boost to survival, or 800%? > > P.S. can you link me to this other thread? [Linkety link link](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=517783&page=2) The % is derived by taking the percentage of people who survive when given all treatments _apart_ from a full spectrum treatment and subtracting it from the percentage who survive when they are given the full spectrum treatment and then comapring that to the control with no treatment. IOW if we give you all treatments aside from chemo you have a 68% chance of survival. If we give you chemo as well you have a 92% chance of survival. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-court-ordered-cancer-treatment-anyone/497410/73 "2009-05-29T01:50:47Z")
> [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#): > > That makes sense. But contraception is kind of permanent too. In the end, is “I would have lived a long adult life but died of cancer at 10” so different from “I would have lived a long adult life but I was never born?” Of course, the current wisdom is, “absolutely, by a factor of a million.” I don’t get this at all. Are you attempting to argue that every sperm is sacred? > [@](#): > > This is the trouble with forcing people to do things and having moral resolve. It’s really possible we’re incorrect about the most fundamental questions. I agree. And that is why it is so important that everyone is totally free to make up thier own mind _when the are an adult_. By allowing the child to die you are removing from him the ability to ever make his own choices. If, when the child is 18, he decied that he wants to drink a plutonium cocktail and then refuse tretament for the inevitable cancer, he should have that right IMO. He should also have the right not to do so. But the important point is that he gets the chance to make that choice as an adult. If he is allowed to die is being denied that oportunity and that is wrong. > [@](#): > > So, letting people do their own thing, including living a life completely devoid of civilization together with their kids, is something we should do. I agree completely. But the mother in this example _doesn’t_ want that. She wants all the benefits of civilisation such as a hospital in which to deliver her child, doctors to diagnose her child’s illness, and cars and roads to take her and her kid to Mexico. She doesn’t want a life devoid of civilisation at all. She wants a life with _all_ the benefits of civilisation, brought to her because other people are upholding their end of the social contract. She then wants to shirk her obligation under this contract to raise a child that is a productive member of that society. It doesn’t work that way. Her actions are unethical and unjust and illegal. > [@](#): > > By tolerating diverse, seemingly crazy ideas, we can at least know that someone somewhere is right. So you would tolerate parents pimping their 6 your olds as prostitues? And you suport the right of parents to put on gladiatorial contests where 12 year olds stab each other to death with swords and fight wild animals? Of course you don’t. Tolerating diverse, crazy ideas is only a good thing up to apoint. And that point is reached when the ideas start to cause needless, irreparable harm to minors. > [@](#): > > Death is an extreme example, but there are many others in terms of culture. The _difference_ is that death is irreversible. If I want to teach my kid that the world is flat, or that negroes are monkeys, that is harmful but the child gets to decide his own position on those issues when he turns 18. If he then decides that I am a nutter he can choose never to listen to me again. If I allow my child to die or lose a limb it’s not like he gets to come back to life or grow another arm at the age of 18. The primary issue here is choice. If the child can’t choose to reverse the effects when they become an adult then it’s something that should be avoided. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-court-ordered-cancer-treatment-anyone/497410/74 "2009-05-29T17:46:05Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Of course there’s a difference. Your question doesn’t even really make sense. How can there be an “I” which is never even _conceived_ (we’re not even talking about abortion here, you said "contraception)? What is it that “never got to be born?” There isn’t even a question of when life begins here. If you’re talking about contraception, you’re talking about no entity or object ever coming into existence at all, so how can it be denie a “chance” at anything? Typical leftist: totally disregarding the rights of hypothetical people. [Are you aware that every time you make a decision, you are aborting literally millions of quantum versions of yourself that would have made a different decision?](http://dresdencodak.com/2009/04/19/onald-creely/) You, sir, are as bad as Hitler. Well, the Hitler who decided to stick with art school and ended up with a career painting landscapes for calendars. The one who plunged Europe into a blood-soaked plague of madness and death was quite a bit worse than you, on account of all the non-hypothetical people he killed. But still. Hitler! ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-court-ordered-cancer-treatment-anyone/497410/75 "2009-05-29T19:06:05Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > The primary issue here is choice. If the child can’t choose to reverse the effects when they become an adult then it’s something that should be avoided. So no infant circumcision, vaccination, braces or education, then? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-court-ordered-cancer-treatment-anyone/497410/76 "2009-05-29T19:12:01Z")
None of that is going to fucking KILL the kid. Do you think parents should have a right to replace food or water with prayer? There’s absolutely no difference between withholding necessary, life saving medical treatment and withholding food or water or air. The kid is not your fucking property. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-court-ordered-cancer-treatment-anyone/497410/77 "2009-05-29T19:44:34Z")
Danny received medical treatment yesterday at a hospital just down the road from me. The family doesn’t want details released, but I heard from a friend who works there that ‘it went well – normal treatment’. But I understand nothing happens immediately – it’s only after a few days that they can tell how the treatment is working. The family had set up an account, and made an appeal for donations from the public. But this has been closed down, at least temporarily, by the state Charities office, because they had not filed as a charity, and because there was some question of how the funds were going to be used. The public appeal was for funds “for Danny”, but when questions, they indicated that they planned to use the funds for ‘family expenses’, which was rather vague. The particular concern was that these charitable funds would be used to pay for the expenses of the criminal flight to California, or a future one. I believe the fund may be reopened once they file the paperwork as a charity, and clarify the planned use of the funds. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-court-ordered-cancer-treatment-anyone/497410/78 "2009-05-29T19:47:34Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > None of that is going to fucking KILL the kid. Do you think parents should have a right to replace food or water with prayer? There’s absolutely no difference between withholding necessary, life saving medical treatment and withholding food or water or air. The kid is not your fucking property. Not until he leaves your vaginal canal, anyway. Before that, he’s fair game. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-court-ordered-cancer-treatment-anyone/497410/79 "2009-05-29T19:48:08Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > None of that is going to fucking KILL the kid. That wasn’t **Blake** ’s rubric. His rubric was irreversible choices. For obvious reasons, I don’t think it’s a workable one. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-court-ordered-cancer-treatment-anyone/497410/80 "2009-05-29T21:19:31Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > That wasn’t **Blake** ’s rubric. His rubric was irreversible choices. For obvious reasons, I don’t think it’s a workable one. I would say the state has the right to intervene to prevent an act from occuring, where on the completion of the act they would have the right to prosecute for criminally negligent homicide, at the minimum. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-court-ordered-cancer-treatment-anyone/497410.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-court-ordered-cancer-treatment-anyone/497410.md?page=5)