# So did Lee Oswald act alone or not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 3, 2010, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-did-lee-oswald-act-alone-or-not/538185 "2010-05-03T18:13:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-did-lee-oswald-act-alone-or-not/538185/81 "2010-05-05T16:56:25Z")
Ah…because you (claim) to remember those events and what you were doing, anyone who doesn’t is either a liar or is far gone? 😛 I’ve seen a lot of ridiculous horseshit here on the 'dope, but this one has got to be close to the prize winner. For my part: JFK: I was running around in the back yard when I noticed my mother crying. I’m not sure if this is a ‘real’ memory or not (I was around 3), since I’ve been told this story many times I might be remembering the story and not the events. Challenger…not sure, heard it on the news. Don’t remember where I was. Reagan: As I already said, no idea where I was, just remember catching it on the news at some point. Elvis: Remember vaguely hear it on the news but not sure where I was. 9/11: Was at my house in Maryland when a friend called me to tell me there had been some kind of accident (first plane hitting WTC), turned on the TV and saw the second plane hit, live. The point is that everyone’s memories work differently, and some things have more holds on us than others. I remember some events like they were in crystal, almost like they just happened a few moments ago, while others I don’t remember at all. Oh, I could probably work out where I was when the Challenger exploded, or when Reagan was shot if I worked at it, but off the top of my head I don’t have any idea. Calling someone a liar because they don’t remember something that you THINK they should remember is seriously silly. -XT ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-did-lee-oswald-act-alone-or-not/538185/82 "2010-05-05T17:04:38Z")
In case you missed it, before we can speculate on GHWB’s reasons for saying he doesn’t remember where he was at the time, the first step is to establish that, indeed, he doesn’t remember. Do you have a cite about that? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-did-lee-oswald-act-alone-or-not/538185/83 "2010-05-05T20:17:52Z")
If you can’t read what I cited, google it yourself. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-did-lee-oswald-act-alone-or-not/538185/84 "2010-05-05T20:40:47Z")
If _that_ is the only cite you have (the one that tomndebb described as “one long, uncited, fact free harangue”), then please just admit that you got nuthin’. That article mentions, unsourced, that Bush says he can’t remember where he was when JFK was killed. The very next sentence says that it’s been proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that two of the three tramps arrested were Hunt and Sturgis, and we already know how ridiculous that claim is. So, do you have anything else? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-did-lee-oswald-act-alone-or-not/538185/85 "2010-05-05T20:42:43Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > If you can’t read what I cited, google it yourself. I’ll take that as a No. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-did-lee-oswald-act-alone-or-not/538185/86 "2010-05-05T22:55:36Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Suggesting to the rifle shot witnesses that they couldn’t determine where the sound was coming from is evidence. Do you dispute that was done? Well, let’s see what was said. Although you seem to be ignoring other requests for such, I’m going to go ahead and expend the energy: “Cite?” By the way, with just your ears can you pinpoint where a sound is coming from? If so, I suggest you contact the AMA or Ripley’s. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-did-lee-oswald-act-alone-or-not/538185/87 "2010-05-06T01:27:21Z")
There were at least 20 witnesses who heard shots from the grassy knoll. [http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKassassinationsC.htm](http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKassassinationsC.htm) You guys tell me they recanted? Fine, for each recantation you can cite, I will look at the circumstances. Here is Jean Hill saying how she was intimidated: > [@](#): > > Jean Hill, speech (November, 1991) > > That area (of the Dealey Plaza) is sloping so when Mary reached up to take the picture, we did get a picture of the School Book Depository. We knew that, because we had a Polaroid camera, we were going to have to be quick if we wanted to take more than one picture. So what we planned was, Mary would take the picture, I would pull it out of the camera, coat it with fixative and put it in my pocket. That way we could keep shooting. When the head shot came, Mary fell down and the film (i.e., the famous photograph) was still in the camera. When the motorcade came around, there were so many voters on the other side (of Elm Street) that I knew the President was never going to look at me, so I yelled, “Hey Mr. President, I want to take your picture!” Just then his hands came up and the shots started ringing out. Then, in half the time it takes for me to tell it, I looked across the street and I saw them shooting from the knoll. I did get the impression that day that there was more than one shooter, but I had the idea that the good guys and the bad guys were shooting at each other. I guess I was a victim of too much television, because I assumed that the good guys always shot at the bad guys. Mary was on the grass shouting, “Get down! Get down! They’re shooting! They’re shooting!” Nobody was moving and I looked up and saw this man, moving rather quickly in front of the School Book Depository toward the railroad tracks, heading west, toward the area where I had seen the man shooting on the knoll. So, I thought to myself, “This man is getting away. I’ve got to do something. I’ve got to catch him.” I jumped out into the street. One of the motorcyclists was turning his motor, looking up and all around for the shooter, and he almost ran me over. It scared me so bad, I went back to get Mary to go with me. She was still down on the ground. I couldn’t get her to go, so I left her. I ran across and went up the hill. When I got there a hand came down on my shoulder, and it was a firm grip. This man said, “You’re coming with me.” And I said, “No, I can’t come with you, I have to get this man.” I’m not very good at doing what I’m told. He showed me I.D. It said Secret Service. It looked official to me. I tried to turn away from him and he said a second time, “You’re going with me.” At this point, a second man came and grabbed me from the other side, and they ran their hands through my pockets. They didn’t say, “Do you have the picture? Which pocket?” They just ran their hands > through my pockets and took it. They both held me up here (at the shoulder near the neck) someplace, where you could hurt somebody badly - and they told me, “Smile. Act like you’re with your boyfriends.” But I couldn’t smile because it hurt too badly. And they said, “Here we go,” each one holding me by a shoulder. They took me to the Records Building and we went up to a room on the fourth floor. There were two guys sitting there on the other side of a table looking out a window that overlooked “the killing zone,” where you could see all of the goings on. You got the impression that they had been sitting there for a long time. They asked me what I had seen, and it became clear that they knew what I had seen. They asked me how many shots I had heard and I told them four to six. And they said, “No, you didn’t. There were three shots. We have three bullets and that’s all we’re going to commit to now.” I said, “Well, I know what I heard,” and they told me, “What you heard were echoes. You would be very wise to keep your mouth shut.” Well, I guess I’ve never been that wise. I know the difference between firecrackers, echoes, and gunshots. I’m the daughter of a game ranger, and my father took me shooting all my life. Now, I am not a grassy knoll fanatic. But when you say that no witnesses heard anything from the grassy knoll and that no witnesses were told to say anything else, that doesn’t follow the facts. The investigation never followed the facts. Within minutes the witnesses were being told to say other things. That is misconduct in an investigation. [Jean Hill - The Lady in Red](http://www.jfk-info.com/whitmey1.htm) If you would like to accept the official view of what happens, that is your prerogative. I don’t. The investigation was mishandled, and it is entirely possible in my view that Oswald took actions either with others or at the instigation of others. Oswald had plenty of contacts with the CIA, the Soviets and Cuba. While it is possible that no body else had anything to do with it, I am not so naive as to think that there are people in the CIA, the USSR and Cuba that would try to assassinate a head of state. The people who worked for the CIA back then, including the likes of Hunt and Liddy were evil, ruthless and reckless people. Listen to Liddy on his talk show sometime. He is the sort of evil SOB that would not hesitate to kill anyone if he were paid to do it. While it is entirely debatable whether Liddy was there in Dallas, the CIA had lots of evil guys like him for assassinations, which the CIA did. I obviously think the CIA is the leading candidate as to being behind it, but it could be others. It looks to me like a military style ambush. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-did-lee-oswald-act-alone-or-not/538185/88 "2010-05-06T03:56:13Z")
Colorful story from Jean Hill. She says she started to run across the street so quickly that a motorcycle cop almost hit her, but photos show her staying in place for over a minute after the shooting. And the guy who took Ms. Hill to the courthouse building is no mystery - it was Jim Featherston, a reporter for the _Dallas Times Herald_. Here’s his account of that: > [@](#): > > I ran to Dealey Plaza, a few yards away, and this is where I first learned the president had been shot. I found two young women, Mary Moorman and Jean Lollis Hill, near the curb on Dealey Plaza. Both had been within a few feet of the spot where Kennedy was shot, and Mary Moorman had taken a Polaroid picture of Jackie Kennedy cradling the president’s head in her arms. It was a poorly focused and snowy picture, but, as far as I knew then, it was the only such picture in existence. I wanted the picture and I also wanted the two women’s eyewitness accounts of the shooting. > I told Mrs. Moorman I wanted the picture for the Times Herald and she agreed. I then told both of them I would like for them to come with me to the courthouse pressroom so I could get their stories and both agreed. . . . I called the city desk and told Tom LePere, an assistant city editor, that the president had been shot. “Really? Let me switch you to rewrite,” LePere said, unruffled as if it were a routine story. I briefly told the rewrite man what had happened and then put Mary Moorman and Jean Lollis Hill on the phone so they could tell what they had seen in their own words. Mrs. Moorman, in effect, said she was so busy taking the picture that she really didn’t see anything. Mrs. Hill, however, gave a graphic account of seeing Kennedy shot a few feet in front of her eyes. > > Before long, the pressroom became filled with other newsmen. Mrs. Hill told her story over and over again for television and radio. Each time, she would embellish it a bit until her version began to sound like Dodge City at high noon. She told of a man running up toward the now-famed grassy knoll pursued by other men she believed to be policemen. In the meantime, I had talked to other witnesses and at one point I told Mrs. Hill she shouldn’t be saying some of the things she was telling television and radio reporters. I was merely trying to save her later embarrassment but she apparently attached intrigue to my warning. > > As the afternoon wore on, a deputy sheriff found out that I had two eyewitnesses in the pressroom, and he told me to ask them not to leave the courthouse until they could be questioned by law enforcement people. I relayed the information to Mrs. Moorman and Mrs. Hill. > > All this time, I was wearing a lapel card identifying myself as a member of the press. It was also evident we were in the pressroom and the room was so designated by a sign on the door. > > I am mentioning all this because a few months later Mrs. Hill told the Warren Commission bad things about me. She told the commission that I had grabbed Mrs. Moorman and her camera down on Dealey Plaza and that I wouldn’t let her go even though she was crying. She added that I “stole” the picture from Mrs. Moorman. Mrs. Hill then said I had forced them to come with me to a strange room and then wouldn’t let them leave. She also said I had told her what she could and couldn’t say. Her testimony defaming me is all in Vol. VI of the Hearings Before the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, the Warren Report. > > Why Mrs. Hill said all this has never been clear to me – I later theorized she got swept up in the excitement of having the cameras and lights on her and microphones shoved into her face. She was suffering from a sort of star-is-born syndrome, I later figured. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-did-lee-oswald-act-alone-or-not/538185/89 "2010-05-06T04:10:56Z")
You say “official view.” The smart money is on saying “science.” I accept the science involved. In other words, I don’t buy into the conspiracy theories. > [@](#): > > It looks to me like a military style ambush. You do know that Oswald was in the military, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-did-lee-oswald-act-alone-or-not/538185/90 "2010-05-06T04:26:45Z")
[QUOTE=The Second Stone] I obviously think the CIA is the leading candidate as to being behind it, but it could be others. [/QUOTE] It’s a crazy thought, but maybe it was that Oswald guy? I mean, it could have been space aliens, the Easter Bunny or The Comedian, to be sure, but using Occam’s Razor, it sure seems like Oswald acting by himself goes to the head of the list. Not wanting to rule anything out, mind, but there is all that evidence stuff. -XT ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-did-lee-oswald-act-alone-or-not/538185/91 "2010-05-06T04:42:34Z")
Yes, Oswald did it. But I am not convinced it was investigated at the time as to whether he did it alone. As for science, science is something repeatable by others. That is not possible here. It is an approximation. There was very little opportunity to ask Oswald, even if he had wanted to talk. Why people like Hill were asked to change their story and why the CIA waited for years to disclose that they even knew Oswald will always be suspicious in my mind. Yes, there are explanations that if accepted are reasonable, but I think those explanations are lies. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-did-lee-oswald-act-alone-or-not/538185/92 "2010-05-06T04:50:45Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Yes, there are explanations that if accepted are reasonable, but I think those explanations are lies. now your,cookin, Suna Woc. You go, girl! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-did-lee-oswald-act-alone-or-not/538185/93 "2010-05-06T06:06:36Z")
Well, the witnesses were tampered with and told to say three shots when they thought they heard as many as six. Oswald had CIA ties, and the CIA said he didn’t. So 15 years later when all the people could say why the lies were told are dead and gone, or still liars, we are supposed to believe them? No. They are liars. We have a botched investigation, 20 eyewitnesses described shots from elsewhere and Oswald, the perfect patsy, a discontent with ties to everyone pulling the trigger. Sorry. I’m not so naive that I think there can’t be political assassinations in this country and that assassins at the CIA wouldn’t have part. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-did-lee-oswald-act-alone-or-not/538185/94 "2010-05-06T09:20:43Z")
Who says it’s a botched investigation? You? Who says the actual evidence is based on lies? You? What else do you have? Oh, yes. You’re not naive. That’s your case? Somehow, I think that just doesn’t cut it as actual evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-did-lee-oswald-act-alone-or-not/538185/95 "2010-05-06T09:36:29Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > As for science, science is something repeatable by others. That is not possible here. It is an approximation. There was very little opportunity to ask Oswald, even if he had wanted to talk. Ever hear of Forensics? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-did-lee-oswald-act-alone-or-not/538185/96 "2010-05-07T01:03:03Z")
Guys, it’s my opinion. Originally, this was a GQ and I was asked for why people like me thought it. So yes, when you tell the witnesses that they were wrong about how many shots they heard, that is a wrong investigation. When your lead suspect is shot to death in front of the nation, that is botched. That’s my opinion. You are not obliged to share it. But if you screw up so bad that you lose a suspect you have in custody, that is botched. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-did-lee-oswald-act-alone-or-not/538185/97 "2010-05-07T02:32:39Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > So yes, when you tell the witnesses that they were wrong about how many shots they heard, that is a wrong investigation. Witnesses can’t be mistaken? What they say they observed is to be taken literally, without question? > [@](#): > > When your lead suspect is shot to death in front of the nation, that is botched. That’s my opinion. You are not obliged to share it. But if you screw up so bad that you lose a suspect you have in custody, that is botched. Sure, but that doesn’t cause the evidence against the now-dead lead suspect to evaporate. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-did-lee-oswald-act-alone-or-not/538185/98 "2010-05-07T02:56:05Z")
Of course witnesses can be mistaken. I’ve never said otherwise. I’m saying that it is improper to suggest to the witness that they are mistaken when their statement is being taken. You are free to disagree with me on that. I wouldn’t do it. Nor have I ever said that Oswald did not commit criminal acts. But when you say Oswald was the lead suspect, rather than the only suspect, you are agreeing with me. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-did-lee-oswald-act-alone-or-not/538185/99 "2010-05-07T03:04:26Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Of course witnesses can be mistaken. I’ve never said otherwise. I’m saying that it is improper to suggest to the witness that they are mistaken when their statement is being taken. You are free to disagree with me on that. I wouldn’t do it. It’s not at all clear that the manipulation occurred. > [@](#): > > Nor have I ever said that Oswald did not commit criminal acts. But when you say Oswald was the lead suspect, rather than the only suspect, you are agreeing with me. I said “lead suspect” because _you_ said “lead suspect” when describing your generalized case. Oswald killed Kennedy and there is no evidence he had any help. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-did-lee-oswald-act-alone-or-not/538185/100 "2010-05-07T03:26:50Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Guys, it’s my opinion. Originally, this was a GQ and I was asked for why people like me thought it. . . . That’s my opinion. You are not obliged to share it. “You cannot reason a man out of a position he did not reason himself into in the first place.” – **Dr. Fidelius** (?) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-did-lee-oswald-act-alone-or-not/538185.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-did-lee-oswald-act-alone-or-not/538185.md?page=6)