Ye haf beyn mightly whoosed, yea.
The Knights Templar still held fortresses in the holy land, as well as some islands, as you mentioned.
They also were probably one of the riches, if not THE richest order in Europe by the time of their downfall. In fact, the last Templar Grand Master, Jacques de Molay, was starting plans to reignite the cause of the holy land, possibly culminating in another crusade. But by that time Philip had his eyes on all that Templar gold, and he was himself in considerable debt to them. Kill two birds with one stone and all that.
They certainly were still a very powerful bunch, politically, economically and militarily. Philip’s coup was really a stroke of genius.
Oh please, there’ve been like twenty hard core gay Templar videos released in 2005 alone!
Can I add my 2 cents, seeing as how I spent most of last semester researching this subject? IIRC, new evidence recently came to light that there may have been parts of the initiation ritual which involved blasphemy, namely denying Christ and spitting or urinating on the Cross, meant to aid the Templars if they were ever captured and forced to deny their faith. So they could escape and continue fighting. This little tidbit didn’t end up in the paper, because it came from a History Channel show on the Templars and I couldn’t find anything else to back it up. However, the other accusations, like idol-worship, homosexuality, etc were all invented by Philip, and of all the Templars that did confess to it under torture, something like all but 12 later recanted. Also, the descriptions of Baphomet varied widely, some saying it was a cat, others a beast with 3 heads or a man with 2 faces… Same with the descriptions of homosexuality, some claiming they were forces to kiss each other’s penises or engage in anal intercourse. Didn’t find anything about rimjobs, but, like the admissions of idol-worship, the descriptions varied so greatly that they were probably just the statements of men who had been tortured so long they’d say anything to make it stop.
And I’ll add this little bit as well, since it was my thesis- not only was Philip trying to get the Templar’s gold, he was also trying to weaken the Church’s influence in France.
Yay, seaworthy82! I wasn’t the only one delving in to the Templars this semester. While my paper focused more on the Knights Hospitaller of St. John of Jerusalem (purely because I found them to be a bit more level-headed), you can’t read about one of the military orders without reading about the others.
Nothing I read about the accusations against the Templars seemed to be based in truth. Almost all agreed the Philip the Fair was greedy and used Clement V, who didn’t want to piss Philip off.
I did read this, however. Near the begin of the accusations, when some of the knights “confessed” to have committed whatever horrendous acts, the Templar treasurer at the time “confessed” to – and whether it was an initiation act or just in greeting I can’t remember – a knight of the Order kissing him on the lips, above his navel and at the base of his spine.
So, there is that. Of course, most everyone withdrew their confessions, but many were still burned as relapsed heretics – because you couldn’t be one of those either.
I pretty sure I read that in Warriors of the Lord: The Military Orders of Christendom by Michael Walsh. I liked this book a lot because gave a concise, chronological account of the major orders (Templars, Hospitallers and Teutonic Knights).
Still, you have to laugh because Philip didn’t profit from this whole fiasco. Nearly all the Templars’ assets were give to the Hospitallers making them quite wealthy. And this was possibly the catalyst that allowed them to survive to the present day as the Knights of Malta.
Wow. I’m glad I got to use this knowledge! Go school!
Sorry if this as a zombie thread, but I was watching Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade the other day. You know the part where they go into the cave where the ancient Crusader Knight is guarding the true grail along with bunch of deadly phonies?
“Well, if I chose the wrong cup, Is there any way I can get out of being turned into a pile of dust?”
- Ancient Crusader smiles sweetly -
Thanks Straight Dope. You’ve ruined another movie.
Which is practically a definition of invented-after-the-fact urban legends.
Hooray! Now if we can only get Dopers to stop using the History Channel as a source. The only fact for which one can use the History Channel as a cite is that there is a History Channel. Beyond that all is darkness and void…
OK… let’s see. You’re caught by Muslims in Jerusalem, you’re white(ish), you don’t speak the language, you’re obviously not dressed or equipped like a local. Your “cover” is basically to say (or rather pantomime): “I’m not a white European Christian Crusader, and I’ll rim out any man who says otherwise?”
I’m sorry, I just don’t see it. The templars were supposed to be a clever lot, but it just sounds like somebody was into getting rimjobs from the new initiates.
The Knights Templar had many enemies and most of the exotic tales about them are probably slander. From everything I have read over the years your supposition is correct. Whether any of the stories are true will remain unknown as the initiation practices were unknown even at the time and are not in any known record that I have ever heard of. Keep in mind the actual order was ended in the early 1300’s by Pope Clement V.
Jim
Of course I just noticed this is an old thread from last August, my apologies.
Jim :smack:
In General Questions, we don’t get too excited if you bring up a Zombie thread, as long as you are adding something new in the way of additional factual information. If you bring it up just to make an amusing side comment, then that’s when it gets shut down.
samclem moderator
Then why did they do it?
Who(reliably) says they did?
::* snort *::
Oops…
Thanks for playing Read the Thread All the Way Through First, newcrasher. Sorry, you don’t earn any prizes.
Sometimes they just write themselves, don’t they?
Some time back (sorry, no link) I read what seemed to be at least a semi-official history of the Knights Templar. According to the Web site, any kind of homosexual activity was grounds for immediate expulsion from the order.
Unique? Isn’t that a common accusation against Freemasonry?
Aha! The classic non-denial denial: Answer a question that wasn’t asked. You press secretary, you. 