# So, do Satanic cults exist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 21, 2005, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438 "2005-07-21T07:56:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/61 "2013-04-23T13:04:15Z")
> [@Enidi](#): > > It sometimes feels like a paradoxical situation. The victim could be considered delusional because to a degree they have been programmed. They have been taunted, tortured, and are not ..quote on quote… in the proper state of mind. It doesn’t mean they are not telling the truth just because they have triggers from within that are like timebombs going off during a holiday. The sect who programmed them are sadistic in nature and are quite delusional themselves. So…do you do not think that is worthy to ponder over? That is the catch 22 itself. Do we believe the victim when we doubt the existence of sects who are wealthy and powerful? True..some victims do lie. Maybe they lie to cover for someone or perhaps they want to flaunt sadistic rubbish for the public? They were still tortured by members of a sect though..so it’s left to the expert agents who de-programme them to decide what the truth is..however..that truth is many times hidden based on circumstantial evidence and the sect will flee elsewhere and start over. Enough with the vague-give us specifics. Do you have anything of substance to give us, or are you just here for a “I know secret things!” ego boost? ---
**Author:** ![Enidi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19b73/32.png) [@Enidi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enidi)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/62 "2013-04-23T13:08:23Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And you add another unsubstantiated story to your list. Would you mind not doing this any more, and just give us some evidence for the claims you’ve already made? The last thing we need is another witch hunt fueled by people like you. > edited to add: Could you give us the name of your hometown? I’m trying to be discreet due to the danger that existed in 1971. The town was Vineland. It’s located in South Jersey. There are isolated testimonies from my friends on Christian websites. The true facts of the case were available through publication for years and many are difficult to find on the net. I have spoken to everyone who worked the case, most of the victims and police officers are deceased and the case is rare. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/63 "2013-04-23T13:19:35Z")
You seem to be all over the web spreading these stories, along with a few “professional” occult researchers. The claim that your super-secrit cult went through the trouble of leaving a drawing of a pentagram at a church burning. Gee, it’s no wonder they were so successful at keeping secrets. Look-it was 1971, and _everyone_ was seeing satanic cults under their beds, and it didn’t help that your local Church of the Nazarene was crying “Satanists are among us!” to one and all. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/64 "2013-04-23T13:21:51Z")
The thing I always want to say in circumstances like this: 1. People are _dumb_. Look at the 5 or 10 people closest to you. Do all of them look like they could hold a secret of that magnitude, and never, ever let it slip? Do you think all of the people involved are smart enough? 2. People are _greedy_. If there’s money to be had - which there would have been, when the Satanic Panic was at its fervor - people would have shared the story with every media source they could have thought of. If they could have brought evidence to the table, they would have made a bunch of money from the tabloids. In short, it’s nothing more than a protected populace recoiling in fear from what is Different. These days it’s Muslims. And so the world turns. ---
**Author:** ![DxZero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DxZero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DxZero)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/65 "2013-04-23T13:23:43Z")
> [@Enidi](#): > > I’m trying to be discreet due to the danger that existed in 1971. **The town was Vineland. It’s located in South Jersey**. There are isolated testimonies from my friends on Christian websites. The true facts of the case were available through publication for years and many are difficult to find on the net. I have spoken to everyone who worked the case, most of the victims and police officers are deceased and the case is rare. Well when I’m strolling down Landis Avenue later today, I’ll be sure to bring this up and how curious it is that none of this has ever even been remotely mentioned during the past 50 or so years my family has lived in the area. So yeah… ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/66 "2013-04-23T13:44:00Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You seem to be all over the web spreading these stories, along with a few “professional” occult researchers. The claim that your super-secrit cult went through the trouble of leaving a drawing of a pentagram at a church burning. Gee, it’s no wonder they were so successful at keeping secrets. > Look-it was 1971, and _everyone_ was seeing satanic cults under their beds, and it didn’t help that your local Church of the Nazarene was crying “Satanists are among us!” to one and all. Yeah, I noticed this, too. The only reference to this incident I can find that _isn’t_ pretty obviously this guy or someone else using the same source material, is a book on how the satanism scare is manufactured. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/67 "2013-04-23T13:51:40Z")
> [@DxZero](#): > > Well when I’m strolling down Landis Avenue later today, I’ll be sure to bring this up and how curious it is that none of this has ever even been remotely mentioned during the past 50 or so years my family has lived in the area. > > So yeah… Contrary to what **Anaamika** thinks there are, of course, people that _can_ keep secrets. Maybe your family does know something. ---
**Author:** ![Enidi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19b73/32.png) [@Enidi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enidi)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/68 "2013-04-23T14:45:53Z")
Okay, I’ll tell the story. It all started when I was about 10 years old, running away with friends to the woods, and hearing sing-song chanting, discovering slaughtered animals, and being chased down. East, West, North, and South Vineland had vast wooded areas during that time and lack of housing developments. We discovered Satan cults because we spyed on them. There had to be 4 different cults and Vineland was/is the largest city in the South Jersey Garden state. We used to visit the “Palace of Depression” on the weekends which was an attraction for children. One isolated incident was with Juan Rivera Aponte, a farmhand on Mill Rd. who performed a "Black Magic spell on a young boy named Roger Carletto. Aponte was in love with the farmer’s daughter and needed the powdered skull of Carletto to perform the spell. At first the farmer was jailed for 6 months until finally evidence led police to Aponte. This occured in 1957 when I was born, however many other isolated murders of this nature existed in Vineland prior to my birth. By 1969, a group of my friends began to display strange personalities. In 1971…the newspapers stated that a young man named Michael Newell asked his 2 friends to drive him to a deserted pond in the hills. That being “Menantico Sandwash”. He asked them to bound his hands and feet, he went through an apparent Satan ritual, and asked the 2 boys to push him into the pond. They did and his body submerged 3 days later. Michael’s body was discoverd by James Maddox who wrote about the incident on [Gateway.com](http://Gateway.com) Just one year prior to Michael’s death…Steve Jubulou was camping with his brother at Menantico when they heard sing-song chanting that developed into screaming along with the pounding of 55 gallon oil cans. His story is very true and can be found in the Weird N.J. magazine issue #20. The chill of the experience and his escape before being caught is nightmarish. I do know those sounds and many of us had the same experience. Police arrived to our school to arrest, question witnesses, and the community was torn beyond belief. Police discovered the remains of dead animals in various wooded areas and lakes. They had evidence which told them there were 50 members present on the night of Michael’s death. Michael’s 2 friends confessed to the crime right away and they spent 5 years in Yardville Prison while officers spent 2 years investigating Lilith Sinclair’s group. They discovered literature in Michael’s room which led them to suspect that a segment of her group was posing in the Chesnut Assembly of God church as Christians. A much older group that used the basement of the church for worship after hours. Pastor Harry Snook supposedly claimed to be unaware of the activity. There after…he de-programmed 90 teenage Devil worshippers in Vineland. This was printed in a Miami newspaper around that time. Michael’s ritual derived from the writings of Colin De Plancey and other medieval theologians where demons had legions. I have no knowledge if it was ever contained elsewhere. Supposedly after he died in the ritual he would return as a captain to rule over 40 legions of demons. This is a Judeo-Christian concept with the protection/aid of Christian demons . Chief of police Charles Pangburn conducted a 2 year investigation and believed that Sinclair’s group were in question. She had revolted against the Church of Satan and evidence was confiscated that proved she was programming kids to pratice rituals. He never revealed the evidence and a portion of it is found through the publications industry where it is merely hinted. Pangburn did not have physical evidence to prove anything beyond the case revolving around just the 2 boys or actually the 3 of them, confused and under the influence of LSD. I know for sure that he was correct because…I met members of the eldely sect 2 years after Michael’s death. The ritual Michael performed was repeated many times by Satan wanna-bees and there were quite a few cases where the cult fled before police arrived. My friend Sharon Carter who was murdered by a maniac shared the information with me. She had spotted Satan cults pushing 2 or 3 members into a lake. Her friends attempted to break it up as she would run to a house and call the police. THIS…went on from '72 to '75. Michael was highly intelligent and tutored students in high school. He had a box made of metal which had Egyptian heiroglyphics carved on the outside. On the inside were hallways that led through a maze. He would place a hamster inside of the box and slam the door piercing the animal with sharp nails that were located on the inside of the door. Quite like an iron maiden. He may have decided to graduate from sacrificing hamsters to Satan to ressurecting himself from the dead? On the other side of town a few young children in my age group were being lowered into snake pits by the 3rd generation Watchtower society. They were called snake pits because they had dead snakes in them and we often discoverd these pits when camping. The entire area was corrupted for decades and I have no idea what the environment is like in the present day. I suspect that Barbara Hutton, whose family line owned the Woolworth Five and Dime stores, actress who married Cary Grant, and was interested in the spirit world…was connected to the sect. She owned a “Rock venue” not far from Vineland. I performed there in '83 and the staff was dressed in blackrobes and there were black mirrors. It was designed like a European castle and years later the township tore it down. The sect had money and power. After Michael’s death, what was known then as “Jesus Freaks” entered our town and opened in houses to convert kids who were suspected to have belonged to a Satan cult. These “born agains” walked the streets, preached to us, and we were called down to the office , questioned about our musical taste, sex, drugs, and the devil. It was moronic because it had no bearing or justification on how Michael was truly murdered. The papers stated Michael’s personal issues to place emphasis on other things and to steer the public clear of suspicion of an elderly sect existing in Vineland. People have no idea regarding the magnitude of this case because they put 100 percent faith in the publications industry. They sometimes lie more than the tortured victims who seem farce to everyone. Michael was a bit delusional trusting his life to a ritual in a book. Perhaps he wanted the philosopher’s stone within his sacrifice? In any event, this particular case revolved around programming and it was Lilith Sinclair and her group who were harrassed by police. A person stated on the Weird N.J. website …under Menantico thread…that Michael was performing the 1 hundred year ritual. The person claimed the ritual took place on the same grounds a hundred years ago and can be found in a newspaper article. Many people have written articles/testimonies throughout the years …but again…those who are victims are always questionable due to the nature of the incidents? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/69 "2013-04-23T14:56:22Z")
> [@Enidi](#): > > Okay, I’ll tell the story. Don’t care. Don’t want. Don’t need any more stories. Need reputable cites from someone other than yourself, not more anecdotes that make you feel important. This stuff you’re posting we all seen before, and when pressed for evidence others do the same thing: Claim that they don’t _dare_ reveal too much because their lives and the lives of others will be in danger. Not buying it, because if you were really afraid for your life you wouldn’t be going all over the internet telling these tall tales trying to get people to notice you. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/70 "2013-04-23T15:12:00Z")
> [@Enidi](#): > > Okay, I’ll tell the story. Cool story, dude. What kind of grade did your creative writing teacher give for that? ---
**Author:** ![Enidi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19b73/32.png) [@Enidi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enidi)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/71 "2013-04-23T15:13:56Z")
> [@DxZero](#): > > Well when I’m strolling down Landis Avenue later today, I’ll be sure to bring this up and how curious it is that none of this has ever even been remotely mentioned during the past 50 or so years my family has lived in the area. > > So yeah… Please listen, I’m not trying to be a wise guy at all, but here are hundreds of people in Vineland for decades who will deny it. At the time of the tragic incidents that were documented in Vineland, farmers as a whole..disregarded the discovery of animal remains, talk of Satan worship, ritual killings etc…because it was bad for business. It made people cringe and everyone tried endlessly to forget about it. That’s the truth my friend. I’m not trying to showboat, it’s just that the experiences of my youth , I love to share because I want to learn from others. The stories are often shared at campfire gatherings, private parties, and mostly amongst those who knew some of the victims first hand or lived up the street from them (which would be me) ..I was cursed with that like my schoolmates. What I stumbled across in my neighbourhood was devistating. The average person asks ..“Why would members of a Satan worshippers sect pose in a church?” Because that mentality has existed for centuries. It’s part of their history and I see no reason why wealthy sects would change their concepts/methods when they clearly work and devistate us when we witness the harm inflicted upon fearful/innocent children. I would like to read other victim’s stories. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/72 "2013-04-23T15:24:23Z")
Get a life, and stop trying to ruin the reputations of others that are innocent of your vast and vague accusations. No more stories unless you’ve got real evidence. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/73 "2013-04-23T15:27:31Z")
People have always delighted in huddling around the fire at night and scaring themselves silly with stories of demons, the Devil, witches, etc. It was this sort of mentality which resulted in hundreds of innocent people being burned or drowned as witches in the Middle Ages, the same mentality that ruined the lives of innocent people in the 70s and 80s, accused of the most ludicrous practices by demented parents and their manipulated kids. Are there Satanic cults? Sure, in the same way there are conspiracy nuts, ufologists, Flat Earthers, phony mediums, fortune tellers and o on and so forth. The Sleep of Reason, as well as breeding monsters, breeds idiots. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/74 "2013-04-23T15:28:02Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Get a life, and stop trying to ruin the reputations of others that are innocent of your vast and vague accusations. No more stories unless you’ve got real evidence. I don’t expect that **Enidi** is going to substantiate his stories and I don’t think this thread will last very long. But while it does, don’t tell other posters to get a life. Insults aren’t allowed in this forum. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/75 "2013-04-23T15:30:30Z")
> [@Enidi](#): > > Please listen, I’m not trying to be a wise guy at all, but here are hundreds of people in Vineland for decades who will deny it. At the time of the tragic incidents that were documented in Vineland, farmers as a whole..disregarded the discovery of animal remains, talk of Satan worship, ritual killings etc…because it was bad for business. It made people cringe and everyone tried endlessly to forget about it. That’s the truth my friend. I’m not trying to showboat, it’s just that the experiences of my youth , I love to share because I want to learn from others. The stories are often shared at campfire gatherings, private parties, and mostly amongst those who knew some of the victims first hand or lived up the street from them (which would be me) ..I was cursed with that like my schoolmates. What I stumbled across in my neighbourhood was devistating. The average person asks ..“Why would members of a Satan worshippers sect pose in a church?” Because that mentality has existed for centuries. It’s part of their history and I see no reason why wealthy sects would change their concepts/methods when they clearly work and devistate us when we witness the harm inflicted upon fearful/innocent children. I would like to read other victim’s stories. So, your support is that everyone else denies it happening, except for when they are talkign around a campfire. Ooookay. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/76 "2013-04-23T15:33:00Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I don’t expect that **Enidi** is going to substantiate his stories and I don’t think this thread will last very long. But while it does, don’t tell other posters to get a life. Insults aren’t allowed in this forum. I apologize for that. If people would like to see the damage that can be done by accusations of Satanic ritual abuse, [read this.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_ritual_abuse) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/77 "2013-04-23T15:37:40Z")
> [@Enidi](#): > > I am sorry but I failed to mention that I am new to this website. . . It always makes me laugh , but whenever a young cult is hauled in for questioning . . . > > If kids are fooling about with the experimentation of drugs…it really has little to do with the elderly sect who is more concerned with programming their minds. You also, perhaps, failed to mention that English is not your first language? The words “cult” and “sect” do not refer to **persons.** ---
**Author:** ![Enidi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19b73/32.png) [@Enidi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enidi)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/78 "2013-04-23T15:39:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You seem to be all over the web spreading these stories, along with a few “professional” occult researchers. The claim that your super-secrit cult went through the trouble of leaving a drawing of a pentagram at a church burning. Gee, it’s no wonder they were so successful at keeping secrets. > Look-it was 1971, and _everyone_ was seeing satanic cults under their beds, and it didn’t help that your local Church of the Nazarene was crying “Satanists are among us!” to one and all. This is insane and you must be joking? The fad craze of Satanic commercial rubbish in the 70’s has little to do with the seriousness of a real Satan worshippers sect that has existed for generations. That’s commerical media you are making reference to. This entire case was spread out like a cow flop through the publications industry for years as if it was Charles Manson or “Rosemary’s Baby” influenced and I’m sorry but that position is moronic. My position is moronic because I was placed right in the thicket of it as a child/teenager whatever? But it’s interesting to read other people’s posts and forget the occult researchers. I mean..this is what I went through and I don’t expect anyone to actually believe it, but some people might share their stories and that’s educating to me. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/79 "2013-04-23T15:42:32Z")
Only reading unsubstantiated stories that support what you already believe is not “educating”. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/80 "2013-04-23T15:45:09Z")
> [@Enidi](#): > > My position is moronic because I was placed right in the thicket of it as a child/teenager whatever? I don’t think anybody else here actually believes you were “placed” in the middle of anything or saw anything. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438.md?page=5)