# So, do Satanic cults exist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 21, 2005, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438 "2005-07-21T07:56:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/101 "2013-04-23T17:41:07Z")
> [@Enidi](#): > > There is hardly any information available on the case. No surprise there. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/102 "2013-04-23T17:45:59Z")
> [@Enidi](#): > > The article is not available on the Weird N.J. website. It’s only in the magazine. Gateway is a site with members who attended the high school. James Maddox posted his testmony on that site. There is hardly any information available on the case. If Weird N.J. the magazine is associated with Weird N.J. the website(and it is) then it’s a poor substitute for a legitimate cite. [Gateway.com](http://Gateway.com) goes to the Gateway computer company and nothing else, so if you could give us the correct web address it would be appreciated. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/103 "2013-04-23T18:01:15Z")
Minor nitpick - with apolgies. > [@](#): > > . . . I was placed right in the thicket of it as a child/teenager . . . I think you meant “in the thick of it” - a thicket is a copse of trees. Also it’s “quote/unquote” not “quote on quote.” Feel free to ignore. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/104 "2013-04-23T18:02:55Z")
Do you actually know this James Maddox person? I notice you keep dropping his name (and not naming the murder victim) but was curious if you’ve met the man or if you just think he bolsters your credibility. He seems to have at least one blog and has never written anything about the experiences you say he had. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/105 "2013-04-23T18:17:27Z")
You know, a quick Googling shows that my old hometown (where I lived during the 1970s) has more than 350 unsolved homicides. I am sure I could make at least one sound “mysterious” with vague hints and innuendos. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/106 "2013-04-23T18:19:35Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > Minor nitpick - with apolgies. [Gaudere’s Law](http://ianferrel.wordpress.com/2005/05/19/gauderes-law/) strikes again. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/107 "2013-04-23T18:42:41Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Contrary to what **Anaamika** thinks there are, of course, people that _can_ keep secrets. Maybe your family does know something. _Some_ can, sure. But the larger the conspiracy, the more people in it, and the less chances of it being a secret just because you can’t only include those secretive types. To keep a secret, you need everyone to keep their mouths shut. To share the secret, you only need one blabbermouth. I mean, just look at **Enidi**. He hints that he has a secret, and a little bit later, tells it! It’s because he wants the attention for having a secret. This is not a bad thing necessarily, it’s human nature. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/108 "2013-04-23T18:42:56Z")
As I said before, Enidi, we expect cites for remarkable claims. I detailed in an earlier post why an organized, murderous Satanic conspiracy would be a remarkable phenomenon. The very beginning of being taken seriously would be your telling us where we could find records of the events. Here’s what a credible cite might look like: > [@an imaginary credible cite](#): > > In the April 27, 1972 issue of the **Vineland Gazette** , there’s an article titled, “Body Found In Culvert Next To Pentagram Graffiti.” It details the investigation into a murder. I believe the victim was murdered by a satanic conspiracy Note that, if you offer us such information, we might still disagree with your conclusion; we might decide, for example, that the evidence shows the body was that of a homeless guy who froze to death on the incredibly cold night of April 26, 1972, and that the Satanic graffiti was coincidental; or we might decide that the murderer was a lone sicko. But at least we’d have something to discuss. As it is, there’s literally no way for us to distinguish your claims from those of a liar or a nutjob. If people fail to take you seriously, that’s why, and we’ll continue not taking you seriously until you can point us to something that counts as evidence, e.g., a newspaper article from a disinterested source such as the local rag, or a police report. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/109 "2013-04-23T18:50:45Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > But at least we’d have something to discuss. As it is, there’s literally no way for us to distinguish your claims from those of a liar or a nutjob. If people fail to take you seriously, that’s why, and we’ll continue not taking you seriously until you can point us to something that counts as evidence, e.g., a newspaper article from a disinterested source such as the local rag, or a police report. Also note, **Enidi** , that claims that the publisher and the police chief are officers in this secret satanic sect and are therefore suppressing information are standard tropes for conspiracy theories, and will actually make you LESS credible. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/110 "2013-04-23T19:29:50Z")
> [@](#): > > DrFidelius > > You know, a quick Googling shows that my old hometown (where I lived during the 1970s) has more than 350 unsolved homicides. I am sure I could make at least one sound “mysterious” with vague hints and innuendos. What kind of unholy experiments were you performing, Dr. Fidelius?:eek: ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/111 "2013-04-23T19:52:10Z")
On a more serious note, when I worked as a reporter on several small-town newspapers in Indiana, I investigated several reports of Satanic activity. I never found any evidence to indicate widespread conspiracies. I think one of this sources of this nonsense is a woman named Rebecca Brown. She was an associate of Jack Chick before they apparently had a falling out. She claimed there were two major Satanic networks in the U.S., one in California and the other in the Midwest. Incidentally, that was one of her saner claims. It wouldn’t surprise me to learn of a cult that practiced human and/or animal sacrifice. However, such a cult would have to be very small and close-lipped. I tend to agree with the majority of Dopers that most “Satanists” are deranged kids with too much time on their hands. All I ever uncovered were upside-down pentagrams painted on traffic signs, reports of vandalized graveyards, and once some pigs that had been killed for no reason anybody could discern. None of it was worth reporting except for the pigs and I suspect they had had some disease and had been killed by an unscrupulous farmer. I kept that to myself as there was no proof of that theory either. On a humorous note, I once saw an advertisement on late night TV that implied its sponsors were dealing with the Dark Powers. They offered a number to call if you would pay a few bucks. I called it several times and a deep gravelly voice promised unholy knowledge for money. The voice also implied that something would get me if I stayed on the line. I did stay on the line twice and after a long pause, the voice would say: “You’re stupid.” One night, the publisher questioned me about the charges. When I told him why I called the number, he laughed so much he forgot to ream me out for running up the phone bill. ---
**Author:** ![Enidi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19b73/32.png) [@Enidi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enidi)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/112 "2013-04-23T23:31:09Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, your position is moronic because you expect anyone to believe that. I don’t because a majority of people won’t believe anything unless it is WRITTEN by a journalist. That is conditioning and very questionable why a majority of people in society believe that facts to back something up are articles written by the hand of liars who sensationalize the topic. It doesn’t prove a thing. And when people do tell the truth, those who listen go completely on what they feel such as a vibe from the person or what they consider to be a hole in their story which makes them in the wrong. That’s just as wrong as the person who sdoes in fact tell lies. How does anybody know for sure? They weren’t there and they may be from a different generation, had not lived through what I did and calling me a liar. It’s ignorant..but also moronic ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/113 "2013-04-23T23:35:56Z")
> [@Enidi](#): > > How does anybody know for sure? Nobody knows for sure. But the overwhelming likelihood is that what you are saying is not true. A lot of similar stories have proved to be completely made up, and you’ve provided no evidence that anyone else can look at. There’s no reason to believe it, and there’s really no reason to even consider it. ---
**Author:** ![Enidi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19b73/32.png) [@Enidi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enidi)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/114 "2013-04-23T23:36:11Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Do you actually know this James Maddox person? I notice you keep dropping his name (and not naming the murder victim) but was curious if you’ve met the man or if you just think he bolsters your credibility. He seems to have at least one blog and has never written anything about the experiences you say he had. James Maddox I conversed with over the phone after reading his testimony on Gateway. ---
**Author:** ![Enidi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19b73/32.png) [@Enidi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enidi)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/115 "2013-04-23T23:46:52Z")
I couldn’t find the site…so I typed in the search bar: James Maddox discusses Menantico Satan cult killing and I was taken to a page that read…Gateway First Four Years and More -1969 and forward. …gatewayfirstfouryears.com/node? page 1 He discovered the victim’s body, but doesn’t have information on the case. ---
**Author:** ![Enidi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19b73/32.png) [@Enidi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enidi)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/116 "2013-04-23T23:53:04Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Also note, **Enidi** , that claims that the publisher and the police chief are officers in this secret satanic sect and are therefore suppressing information are standard tropes for conspiracy theories, and will actually make you LESS credible. I did not claim that the chief of police , Charles Pangburn was with holding information about a sect. I claimed that he was unable to prove it. He was determined though and spent 2 years trying. The publisher’s dismissed Pangburn’s theory by publishing only what appeared to be obvious. What appeared to be obvious to everyone is what people believed. Pangburn had reason to disagree with that. ---
**Author:** ![Enidi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19b73/32.png) [@Enidi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enidi)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/117 "2013-04-23T23:57:48Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > _Some_ can, sure. But the larger the conspiracy, the more people in it, and the less chances of it being a secret just because you can’t only include those secretive types. To keep a secret, you need everyone to keep their mouths shut. To share the secret, you only need one blabbermouth. > > I mean, just look at **Enidi**. He hints that he has a secret, and a little bit later, tells it! It’s because he wants the attention for having a secret. This is not a bad thing necessarily, it’s human nature. That was wrong of me. That may have been my fear I don’t know. Perhaps I was attempting to feel people out. I don’t want any kind of emotional attention, I just want to communicate with others. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/118 "2013-04-24T00:00:27Z")
> [@Enidi](#): > > He discovered the victim’s body, but doesn’t have information on the case. So all he can confirm of your story is that someone died in Vineland, NJ? That’s pretty great stuff you’ve got there. It’s remarkable that of the hundreds of conspirators and thousands of people they affected, intimidated, threatened, beat up and left in ditches in the woods that only you, like Job’s servant, remain to tell the tale. You know, most people, when they grow up, realize that all the gossip they overheard growing up was 99% bullshit. It’s too bad that you’ve never had a similar realization. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/119 "2013-04-24T00:01:51Z")
[From “Satanic panic: the creation of a contemporary legend” by Jeffrey Victor:](http://books.google.com/books?id=abJqF8csPrQC&pg=PA10&lpg=PA10&dq=murder+vineland+nj+1971&source=bl&ots=_aas3Zk905&sig=_gxcp7I1RqJ5VrcMwAEmFgRksmk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Ex53UZ7LKIe60AGTqYGQBw&ved=0CEwQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=murder%20vineland%20nj%201971&f=false) “In a celebrated case in Vineland, New Jersey, in 1971, for example, a mentally disturbed twenty-year-old youth was bound by two other teenagers and thrown into a pond to drown, supposedly at his own request for help in committing suicide. Newspapers reported the murder as being a bizarre Satanic ritual.” [I think you can read the article at this link.](http://newspaperarchive.com/berkshire-eagle/1971-07-14/page-38) It ran in the New York Times in 1971, although this is a reprint from another newspaper. The article says Patrick “Mike” Newell, a glass worker, the victim. Of course the police say it was a suicide “with assistance” and nobody reports any evidence of a cult beyond Newell’s own interest in the occult. Surprise! ---
**Author:** ![Enidi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19b73/32.png) [@Enidi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enidi)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/120 "2013-04-24T00:11:44Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > As I said before, Enidi, we expect cites for remarkable claims. I detailed in an earlier post why an organized, murderous Satanic conspiracy would be a remarkable phenomenon. The very beginning of being taken seriously would be your telling us where we could find records of the events. > > Here’s what a credible cite might look like: > > Note that, if you offer us such information, we might still disagree with your conclusion; we might decide, for example, that the evidence shows the body was that of a homeless guy who froze to death on the incredibly cold night of April 26, 1972, and that the Satanic graffiti was coincidental; or we might decide that the murderer was a lone sicko. > > But at least we’d have something to discuss. As it is, there’s literally no way for us to distinguish your claims from those of a liar or a nutjob. If people fail to take you seriously, that’s why, and we’ll continue not taking you seriously until you can point us to something that counts as evidence, e.g., a newspaper article from a disinterested source such as the local rag, or a police report. You’re looking for police records that I don’t have. There were articles in the N.Y. Times and in a Miami newspaper (forget the name)..along with local papers in Jersey ..I suppose I don’t have that prove because I never created a website and posted the information on the documented case. It’s been kept off the internet for the most part, but mentioned briefly on a few Christian websites. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438.md?page=7)