# So, do Satanic cults exist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 21, 2005, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438 "2005-07-21T07:56:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/141 "2013-04-25T12:28:24Z")
> [@Enidi](#): > > You lie. For your information, you are not allowed to call other posters liars in this forum. (You can do it in the Pit, but not here.) Don’t do it again. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/142 "2013-04-25T12:38:10Z")
> [@Enidi](#): > > No, they were not. > > You lie. Quoting from the article, which, again, you and everybody else can read at that link: “His hands and feet were bound with adhesive tape.” There is not a word about chains. If someone else reported it was chains they’d better have firsthand sources, because it’s not possible to confuse tape and chains. The statement is unambiguous. So I think you’re just wrong here. You misremembered or misunderstood, or you spoke to someone who misremembered or misunderstood. > [@](#): > > A foolish and moronic statement. I guess in your book evidence comes from an old man with a beard up in the puffy white clouds or somebody’s rear end? I guess police work doesn’t produce evidence? ookay. The actual police work didn’t produce any evidence that supports your theory. You’re claiming the police did other investigating that never went anywhere and _that_ supports your theory. > [@](#): > > In life it is common for 2 sides of a story to exist. Yes, it is. But not always, and if there are two sides, both should have evidence for their ideas. If not, there aren’t really two sides. > [@](#): > > In your book that labels it a conspiracy. That’s just stupied. You’ve proposed a conspiracy. What do you want me to call it? I didn’t say all alternate theories of crimes are conspiracies, but this plainly is one. > [@](#): > > If the story that the newspapers printed is wrong Which you haven’t demonstrated… > [@](#): > > Then don’t swallow anything. I’m certainly not swallowing this. Dan Brown wouldn’t publish this story. > [@](#): > > as a result..no crimes will ever be solved. Most crimes are solved without conspiracy theories, I think. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/143 "2013-04-25T12:58:39Z")
You know, if I were a Satanist, I’d be pretty pissed that I’d been able to keep this massive child-murdering conspiracy a secret for 40 years, only to be undone by a lone wacko on the Internet. I mean, we have people so scared that they’re clinging to their federal agent husbands in fear, yet Enid here is blithely yammering on, revealing all their dastardly crimes. She heard drums in the woods, y’all! ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/144 "2013-04-25T13:37:36Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > …because it’s not possible to confuse tape and chains. Chains made out of tape, maybe? (Covers head with hands and runs away) ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/145 "2013-04-25T19:02:20Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > [Gaudere’s Law](http://ianferrel.wordpress.com/2005/05/19/gauderes-law/) strikes again. Yeah. That’s what I get for concentrating on not putting too many p’s in. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/146 "2013-04-25T19:03:50Z")
> [@Enidi](#): > > I only care about the truth. You can’t handle the truth. What? Someone had to say it. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/147 "2013-04-25T19:06:04Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > You know, if I were a Satanist, I’d be pretty pissed that I’d been able to keep this massive child-murdering conspiracy a secret for 40 years, only to be undone by a lone wacko on the Internet. Don’t call other posters wackos, please. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/148 "2013-04-25T19:52:27Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Don’t call other posters wackos, please. Fair enough. My apologies. ---
**Author:** ![Kaviik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f05b48/32.png) [@Kaviik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaviik)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2013, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/149 "2013-04-27T23:31:44Z")
Yes of course Satanic Cults exist. Of course there are different types of Satanism. One particular brand is NOT a cult because no gods are accepted on the other hand all other forms of Satanism as related to the Christian Cult are cults just like Christianity is a cult of many sects. Any Satanism that is derived from the Christian Satan is actually part of Christianity since said brand of Satanism believes that Jesus exists and their Satan is the Christian Satan. Just to be clear; if worship is involved, if following a deity or belief in SUPERNATURAL DEITY(which describes all deities), is a cult. Christianity in all forms are cults Judaism is a cult Islam is a cult Hindi and all sects are cults. Buddhism does not necessarily equal a cult since Buddhism does not require any belief in a deity, but some Buddhist do believe in a deity. As well non religious Satanism is not a cult since no God or Deity is actually worshipped or acknowledged. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2013, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/150 "2013-04-28T01:57:44Z")
> [@Kaviik](#): > > Yes of course Satanic Cults exist. > > Of course there are different types of Satanism. > One particular brand is NOT a cult because no gods are accepted on the other hand all other forms of Satanism as related to the Christian Cult are cults just like Christianity is a cult of many sects. Any Satanism that is derived from the Christian Satan is actually part of Christianity since said brand of Satanism believes that Jesus exists and their Satan is the Christian Satan. > > Just to be clear; if worship is involved, if following a deity or belief in SUPERNATURAL DEITY(which describes all deities), is a cult. > > Christianity in all forms are cults > Judaism is a cult > Islam is a cult > Hindi and all sects are cults. > > Buddhism does not necessarily equal a cult since Buddhism does not require any belief in a deity, but some Buddhist do believe in a deity. > > As well non religious Satanism is not a cult since no God or Deity is actually worshipped or acknowledged. Dude, you don’t get to make up word definitions as you go along. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2013, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/151 "2013-04-28T02:12:41Z")
> [@colander](#): > > Dude, you don’t get to make up word definitions as you go along. He’s not. [Cult](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cult?s=t) 1. a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies. 2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult. 3. the object of such devotion. 4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc. 5.\* Sociology\*. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols. [Sect](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sect?s=t) 1. a body of persons adhering to a particular religious faith; a religious denomination. 2. a group regarded as heretical or as deviating from a generally accepted religious tradition. 3. (in the sociology of religion) a Christian denomination characterized by insistence on strict qualifications for membership, as distinguished from the more inclusive groups called churches. 4. any group, party, or faction united by a specific doctrine or under a doctrinal leader. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2013, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/152 "2013-04-28T02:21:06Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > He’s not. > > [Cult](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cult?s=t) > > 1. a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies. > > 2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult. > > 3. the object of such devotion. > > 4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc. > > 5.\* Sociology\*. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols. > > [Sect](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sect?s=t) > > 1. a body of persons adhering to a particular religious faith; a religious denomination. > > 2. a group regarded as heretical or as deviating from a generally accepted religious tradition. > > 3. (in the sociology of religion) a Christian denomination characterized by insistence on strict qualifications for membership, as distinguished from the more inclusive groups called churches. > > 4. any group, party, or faction united by a specific doctrine or under a doctrinal leader. And which definition is generally understood to be meant whenever the word “cult” is preceded by the word “Satanic” and the practices thereof are purported to include horrible murder conspiracies? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2013, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/153 "2013-04-28T02:35:07Z")
> [@colander](#): > > And which definition is generally understood to be meant whenever the word “cult” is preceded by the word “Satanic” and the practices thereof are purported to include horrible murder conspiracies? It might be an overly-literal reply to the question in the thread title, but no definitions were made up. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/154 "2013-04-30T11:22:27Z")
The word “cult” should be avoided – it carries too many negative connotations. The term “new religious movement” should be used instead. So is there, or have there ever been, “new religious movements” with a positive view of Satan and/or Lucifer? The answer is yes, though it should be pointed out that 1) none of these groups ever hurt a fly, and 2) _none of these groups ever hurt a fly_. For a contemporary American example, see the [Temple Of Set](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Set), founded in 1975 and still going strong. Over in Europe, and going back a bit, the earliest clear-cut example is probably that of Ben Kadosh’s circle in Copenhagen, Denmark, ca. 1906 – and then you’ve got the Fraternitas Saturni in 1920’s Weimar Republic Germany, and so on and so forth. As for LaVey’s Church Of Satan, it is not and has never in any way been “religious”; in the words of LaVey himself, it’s simply “Ayn Rand with trappings.” Last but not least - and all together now - let’s remember once again that none of these groups ever hurt a fly. There has never been anything like the kind of “Satanic Panic”-style national or international child- and/or animal-sacrificing “cult” the OP describes. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/155 "2013-04-30T12:36:50Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > The word “cult” should be avoided – it carries too many negative connotations. The term “new religious movement” should be used instead. > > So is there, or have there ever been, “new religious movements” with a positive view of Satan and/or Lucifer? The answer is yes, though it should be pointed out that 1) none of these groups ever hurt a fly, and 2) _none of these groups ever hurt a fly_. > > For a contemporary American example, see the [Temple Of Set](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Set), founded in 1975 and still going strong. Over in Europe, and going back a bit, the earliest clear-cut example is probably that of Ben Kadosh’s circle in Copenhagen, Denmark, ca. 1906 – and then you’ve got the Fraternitas Saturni in 1920’s Weimar Republic Germany, and so on and so forth. > > As for LaVey’s Church Of Satan, it is not and has never in any way been “religious”; in the words of LaVey himself, it’s simply “Ayn Rand with trappings.” > > Last but not least - and all together now - let’s remember once again that none of these groups ever hurt a fly. There has never been anything like the kind of “Satanic Panic”-style national or international child- and/or animal-sacrificing “cult” the OP describes. I’m not sure that the Temple of Set is that sparkly clean. If Nikolas & Zeena (LaVey) Schreck were members/clerics, they have made noises that they did not find ritual animal sacrifice out of the question (tho they may have been accepting of it as providing food.) ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/156 "2013-04-30T12:38:31Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > I’m not sure that the Temple of Set is that sparkly clean. If Nikolas & Zeena (LaVey) Schreck were members/clerics… As far as I have been able to ascertain, though, they never actually _performed_ any animal sacrifices. No matter which “noises” they might have made along the way. I might be wrong, though? I know little about the American scene, more about Europe. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/157 "2013-04-30T14:31:02Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > The word “cult” should be avoided – it carries too many negative connotations. Quite often that makes it exactly the word you want. Let us never lessen our language’s precious stock of snarl-words. Besides, [“cult”](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Cult) is not just another word for “sect” or “religious movement,” it has its own distinct – and useful – semantic content: > [@](#): > > A **cult** is any religious group too small to field its own army or without political power. It is also a term generally applied to religions that are isolationist, controlling, and often, extreme. > > In pop culture, cults are scary places where lost children go to be raped and murdered, where the recruits wander through airports chanting various ‘ohms’, and of course where people are (ohhga booga) brainwashed. > > A bit more formally, the term is usually used to refer to religions (or other movements) whose beliefs or practices are not just “not what we do”, but are seen by the culture at large, as truly bizarre. In religious studies, recently developed religions with few adherents are called “new religious movements” or “NRMs”; the term “cult” is generally reserved for a religious group that is actively endotoxic (dangerous to its members, e.g. People’s Temple) or exotoxic (dangerous to non-members, e.g. Aum Shinrikyo). Often, cults are identified as religions that are coercive in recruiting and retaining members. “Cult” can be a Snarl Word applied to unpopular religions, and was used up until the middle of the 20th century to describe any sort of movement, religious or otherwise, that had an element of in-group/out-group to it. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/158 "2013-04-30T15:27:06Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Quite often that makes it exactly the word you want. Let us never lessen our language’s precious stock of snarl-words. > > Besides, [“cult”](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Cult) is not just another word for “sect” or “religious movement,” it has its own distinct – and useful – semantic content: Right, but since no Satanic group anywhere in the world has ever lived up to the definitions of a “cult” as laid out in your lengthy quote, the use of the term “Satanic cult” shouldn’t be used to describe those Satanic groups which have in fact existed. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/159 "2013-04-30T15:31:19Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Right, but since no Satanic group anywhere in the world has ever lived up to the definitions of a “cult” as laid out in your lengthy quote, the use of the term “Satanic cult” shouldn’t be used to describe those Satanic groups which have in fact existed. Agreed . . . Even LaVey never took the whole thing seriously enough to make a cult of it. The kind of people who follow cults, as defined above, are exactly the kind the Church of Satan purportedly does **not** want. ---
**Author:** ![Skypist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skypist/32/169_2.png) [@Skypist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skypist)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2013, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/160 "2013-05-01T05:43:35Z")
Well, this was not a widespread conspiracy or anything, but apparently it really was ritual murders performed by a cult. One of the victims was Mark Kilroy, a UT college student who was celebrating spring break in March 1989, disappeared while with friends in Matamoros, and was later found murdered. Thirteen bodies were found, including Kilroy’s. [http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20120164,00.html](http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20120164,00.html) It was reportedly a combination of Santería, Palo Mayombe, voodoo, Satanism and santismo. I didn’t want to write down some of the graphic information about what was found, but you can read about it in these articles if you want to. Apparently the perpetrators were drug dealers who thought these rituals would make them invincible. [http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial\_killers/weird/constanzo/1.html](http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/weird/constanzo/1.html) > [@](#): > > Between 1987 and 1989, police in Mexico City recorded 74 unsolved ritual murders, 14 of them involving infant victims. Constanzo’s cult is suspected in at least 16 of those cases, all involving children or teenagers, but authorities lack sufficient evidence to press charges. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438.md?page=9)