# So, do Satanic cults exist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 21, 2005, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438 "2005-07-21T07:56:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2013, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/161 "2013-05-01T09:12:46Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Last but not least - and all together now - let’s remember once again that none of these groups ever hurt a fly. There has never been anything like the kind of “Satanic Panic”-style national or international child- and/or animal-sacrificing “cult” the OP describes. But why not? Satan is often portrayed as a powerful entity who can get things done in our fallen mortal world, usually having deceitful plans happening right under our noses. So why don’t some true believers get together and try to exploit this power for personal gain? Or even somehow use it to make the world a better place, in their view? Yeah, that would be crazy, but at least it follows the accepted Christian theology that’s been pounded into their heads since they were a kid. Most other cults that commit heinous acts would seem crazier in comparison IMO because they lack cultural reference (I’m a living god or prophet you never heard of, there’s a flying saucer in the comet coming to kill us all, lizard people, crystals, etc.). ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2013, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/162 "2013-05-01T11:41:18Z")
Because, if you are a true believer in the bible stories, you automatically believe that God is the Good Guy end the Devil the Bad Guy and in the end God will win. So why would you pick the loosing side? Plus you also believe that that the deal you strike with the Devil is only for the here and now and the price is your soul going to hell, FOR FUCKING EVER!! Now does that sound like a good deal to you? So no true believer will ever become a Satanist resembling the picture true believers have of Satanists. If you’re not a true believer, you don’t believe in Satan either. So why would you become a Satanist in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2013, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/163 "2013-05-01T12:13:32Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Because, if you are a true believer in the bible stories, you automatically believe that God is the Good Guy end the Devil the Bad Guy and in the end God will win. So why would you pick the loosing side? > > Plus you also believe that that the deal you strike with the Devil is only for the here and now and the price is your soul going to hell, FOR FUCKING EVER!! > Now does that sound like a good deal to you? > > So no true believer will ever become a Satanist resembling the picture true believers have of Satanists. > > If you’re not a true believer, you don’t believe in Satan either. So why would you become a Satanist in the first place? Because, to paraphrase Mark Twain, one side has complete control of the press and he has sympathy for the underdog. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2013, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/164 "2013-05-01T14:17:36Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Because, if you are a true believer in the bible stories, you automatically believe that God is the Good Guy end the Devil the Bad Guy and in the end God will win. So why would you pick the loosing side? > > Plus you also believe that that the deal you strike with the Devil is only for the here and now and the price is your soul going to hell, FOR FUCKING EVER!! > Now does that sound like a good deal to you? > > So no true believer will ever become a Satanist resembling the picture true believers have of Satanists. > > If you’re not a true believer, you don’t believe in Satan either. So why would you become a Satanist in the first place? [Why indeed?](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Satanism) > [@](#): > > In terms of theology, Satanists today can be divided into two main groups: > > **Atheistic Satanism** does not believe that “Satan” actually exists, as such, they do not worship Satan. They believe every person is their own god and that everyone should worship themselves. To them, “Satan” is a symbol of rebellion rather than a literal figure. The most well-known example of this group is Anton LaVey, founder of the Church of Satan. > **Theistic Satanism** believes that “Satan” is an actual independently existing being, which serves as a God-analogue. > > Satanists differ in their attitude towards the God of Christianity. Atheistic Satanists deny that the Christian God exists. Theistic Satanists vary in their opinions: > > - Most deny God’s existence altogether > - Some believe that God exists, but is weaker than Satan > - Some believe that God exists, and that Satan is weaker and God will ultimately triumph over him — and they will be consigned along with Satan to an eternity in hell. They believe that it is “better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven”, as Milton said. > - Some believe that both God and Satan exist but that the final outcome of all this is unknowable. > - Some believe that God exists but is unworthy of worship and choose to worship Satan rather than show even tacit approval for such a God. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/165 "2013-05-01T15:58:22Z")
I find it funny that a super secret sect, trying desperately to protect its anonymity, would go around spray-painting pentagrams everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2013, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/166 "2013-05-01T16:55:26Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > But why not? For the same reason that we don’t have any murderous cultists worshiping Cthulhu. Actually, for the same reason that we really don’t have a lot of murderous cults, period. Manson burned out in just a few months. Jeffrey Lundgren, (a murderous cult leader, but not a Satanist), was caught after a single event. It is not possible to go on murderous rampages without attracting a LOT of attention from people who want to stop those actions. It is also not possible to steal babies to murder on a regular basis without attracting attention or to persuade members of one’s cult to offer up their own babies on a regular basis without facing rebellion. Every once in a while some idiot does go on a murder spree and attributes it to some malign force, whether Satan or some other. However, the notion behind the “Satanic cult” is that a group of people carry out repeated murders over a very long time. Getting a group together whom one can persuade to engage in that behavior is not that easy, to begin with. The “Manson Family” lasted around two years, being exposed as soon as they turned violent. From the time that Lundgren went from nutty cult to violent cult until the time that they were tracked down and arrested was around a year and a half, (and the “violent cult” phase was mostly talk until the last weeks before they actually acted). Then there is the problem of keeping every member of the group controlled in such a way that they will not defect and inform the authorities. Manson used drugs and his persuasive power over young girls to keep his group together. Lundgren persistently lost members who would then go to the authorities with his plans. A cult that had to murder every member who became apostate would attract attention if the cult lasted for any length of time. Serial killers are successful because they are solitary. Given the nature of people, the idea that a group would remain sufficiently cohesive to never reveal themselves for any length of time is improbable. Someone is either going to rethink their involvement and want to confess, become afraid and want to escape, or become brash and want to brag about their actions if it continues for any length of time. This is not to say that cult-like groups cannot survive for several generations, but when they begin getting violent, they tend to implode. For example, if one chooses to regard the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints as a cult, one would note that when Warren Jeffs decided to impose on the group his personal brand of polygyny and violence, (never going as far as murder), his run lasted only about four years. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2013, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/167 "2013-05-01T16:56:04Z")
> [@White SIFL](#): > > I find it funny that a super secret sect, trying desperately to protect its anonymity, would go around spray-painting pentagrams everywhere. They’re hiding in plain sight! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2013, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/168 "2013-05-01T17:01:21Z")
> [@White SIFL](#): > > I find it funny that a super secret sect, trying desperately to protect its anonymity, would go around spray-painting pentagrams everywhere. Anonymous != invisible. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/169 "2013-05-01T17:27:49Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > But why not? Satan is often portrayed as a powerful entity who can get things done in our fallen mortal world, usually having deceitful plans happening right under our noses. So why don’t some true believers get together and try to exploit this power for personal gain? This has indeed happened several times throughout history – but, see, trying to _strike a deal_ with the Devil isn’t quite the same as _worshipping_ him. It might make you a bad Christian, but it doesn’t necessarily make you a _Satanist_. For example: There was a case in Odense, Denmark, back in 1803. Three local lads (Christian Bentzen, Jens Nielsen and Andreas Christian Green) wrote up a contract selling their souls to the Devil; they were found out, the contract was discovered, and has been preserved in an archive ever since. (Historians have studied it – it’s legit.) Now, these crazy kids were certainly hoping for a great deal of “personal gain” – the contract, which as you can understand is pretty awesome, specifies, for example, that the boys are to be granted a magical ring, which when worn on the right hand gives them the power of invisibility, and when worn on the left hand gives them the strength of ten men. They also wish to become unbeatable at games of dice and cards; to learn how to dance any and every kind of dance there is; to be able to drink as much as they want and still wake up the next morning without a hangover; to play the violin like stone-cold motherfuckers; and to automatically learn the German language without having to actually study the damn thing, with all the tricky grammar and shit. (To all of the above, I can only add: Don’t we all?) Anyway, _and here’s the crucial point to remember_: The three lads also made it abundantly clear that the contract was _not_ to be valid forever and ever. It was only to be valid for exactly fifty-six years, _after which time they wished to die as Christians, and be given proper Christian burials_. In other words: In this case at least, the act of selling one’s soul to the Devil was _not_ done out of “Satanism” or “Devil-worship”. They didn’t _worship_ the Devil, or even necessarily like the guy – but from what they had heard, he was a powerful, influential guy, with which one could supposedly strike a good bargain in order to achieve personal gains. As for their _religious beliefs_, everything indicates that they were, in fact, Christians – bad Christians, maybe, but Christians nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2013, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/170 "2013-05-01T18:03:50Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > For example: There was a case in Odense, Denmark, back in 1803. Three local lads (Christian Bentzen, Jens Nielsen and Andreas Christian Green) wrote up a contract selling their souls to the Devil; they were found out, the contract was discovered, and has been preserved in an archive ever since. (Historians have studied it – it’s legit.) Legit? . . . And . . . signed by all parties? > [@Steken](#): > > Now, these crazy kids were certainly hoping for a great deal of “personal gain” – the contract, which as you can understand is pretty awesome, specifies, for example, that the boys are to be granted a magical ring, which when worn on the right hand gives them the power of invisibility, and when worn on the left hand gives them the strength of ten men. They also wish to become unbeatable at games of dice and cards; to learn how to dance any and every kind of dance there is; to be able to drink as much as they want and still wake up the next morning without a hangover; to play the violin like stone-cold motherfuckers; and to automatically learn the German language without having to actually study the damn thing, with all the tricky grammar and shit. (To all of the above, I can only add: Don’t we all?) > > Anyway, _and here’s the crucial point to remember_: The three lads also made it abundantly clear that the contract was _not_ to be valid forever and ever. It was only to be valid for exactly fifty-six years, _after which time they wished to die as Christians, and be given proper Christian burials_. 😕 What’s Satan’s end of this deal? Sounds like he’s getting played for a sucker. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2013, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/171 "2013-05-01T18:23:30Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Legit? . . . And . . . signed by all parties? Hahaha, oh dear, I really should’ve explained myself better! :smack: “Legit” as in that the document was really written by three lads back in 1803, who genuinely hoped to gain, thereby, the powers mentioned. It’s not a forgery, is what I’m saying. It certainly wasn’t a “legit” contract in the _other_ sense! 🙂 > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 😕 What’s Satan’s end of this deal? Sounds like he’s getting played for a sucker. Exactly. They were hoping to play the guy for a sucker, just like in the fairytales. There’s a bit about how they’ll deny Christ and give him their souls and yadda yadda yadda, but only for as long as the contract is valid. After that, they apparently planned to go back to being good Christians again – just in time for their souls to be saved! A good time in Heaven after a good life on Earth – it’s a win-win! Point being that they weren’t _Satanists_ – what drove them to the Devil wasn’t religious devotion, but hope for personal gain. I’ll go so far as to say that there seems to have existed no Satanic _religion_ before the (early) 20th century. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2013, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/172 "2013-05-01T18:46:33Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > They didn’t _worship_ the Devil, or even necessarily like the guy – but from what they had heard, he was a powerful, influential guy, with which one could supposedly strike a good bargain in order to achieve personal gains. Sort of like Donald Trump, with presumably less hair. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2013, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/173 "2013-05-01T19:04:40Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 😕 What’s Satan’s end of this deal? Sounds like he’s getting played for a sucker. If any of the three boys die before the 56 years is up, Satan gets that boy’s soul. I have no idea if that’s a good deal or not, having no idea what the contemporary market value of a soul was. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2013, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/174 "2013-05-01T19:11:14Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 😕 What’s Satan’s end of this deal? Sounds like he’s getting played for a sucker. If any of the three boys die before the 56 years is up, Satan gets that boy’s soul. I have no idea if that’s a good deal or not, having no idea what the contemporary market value of a soul was. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2013, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/175 "2013-05-01T19:17:02Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Ah yes. My mistake. There are so many similarities and I’m usually pretty messed up on mushrooms at both, so you can understand my error. :smack: Blessed be. ---
**Author:** ![Kaviik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f05b48/32.png) [@Kaviik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaviik)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/176 "2013-05-21T20:59:09Z")
> [@colander](#): > > Dude, you don’t get to make up word definitions as you go along. I apologize to you and the board for such a late reply; I have tied up with work and not near a computer. I did not make up any definitions. Cult and religion are one in the same by definition. Christianity most definitely is a cult by all definitions of cult. Tacitus pretty well said so when he called it a superstition. Regarding Satanism, there are different types under the name Satanism and not all forms of Satanism worship a supernatural being. Those that worship the Satan of Christianity by definition worship a supernatural being. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/177 "2013-05-21T21:01:14Z")
> [@Kaviik](#): > > I did not make up any definitions. Cult and religion are one in the same by definition. Cite for that definition, please? ---
**Author:** ![Kaviik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f05b48/32.png) [@Kaviik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaviik)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/178 "2013-05-21T21:15:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Cite for that definition, please? okay here is the definition of religion Definition of RELIGION 1 a : the state of a religious \ b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance 2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices 3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness 4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith > **[Definition of RELIGION](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion)** > > a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices; the service and worship of God or the supernatural; commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance… See the full definition Definition of CULT 1 : formal religious veneration : worship 2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents 3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents 4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator \ 5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : the object of such devotion c : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion > **[Definition of CULT](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cult)** > > a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents; great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (such as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad; the object of... I would further add that to a Christian even other sects/denominations of Christianity are called cults. In 50ce Christianity by all definitions was a cult. If we are too believe the NT fables; Jesus was a Cult leader with a handful of followers prior to his death. As said in Rome Christianity was a cult in the first century as stated by Tacitus. Here is the definition of cult ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/179 "2013-05-22T15:04:26Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m certainly not swallowing this. Dan Brown wouldn’t publish this story. I dunno. Dan Brown thinks Louis Armstrong was a Mason, and that a BBC field reporter is eligible to win a Pulitzer for a story he’s covering _for the BBC_. I guess what I’m saying is: There isn’t a lot Dan Brown wouldn’t publish. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438/180 "2013-05-22T15:28:35Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Because, if you are a true believer in the bible stories, you automatically believe that God is the Good Guy end the Devil the Bad Guy and in the end God will win. So why would you pick the loosing side? > > Plus you also believe that that the deal you strike with the Devil is only for the here and now and the price is your soul going to hell, FOR FUCKING EVER!! > Now does that sound like a good deal to you? > > So no true believer will ever become a Satanist resembling the picture true believers have of Satanists. > > If you’re not a true believer, you don’t believe in Satan either. So why would you become a Satanist in the first place? My daughter’s friend does it to troll her grandparents, who _are_ true believers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-satanic-cults-exist/313438.md?page=10)