So, do Satanic cults exist?

[Enidi]

@Zjestika

This is total friend-of-a-friend territory, but I know someone who was in an intensive group therapy for a few months, and someone in the group claimed to have grown up in a Satanic cult, complete with animal and human sacrifices and torture. Not Anton LaVay satanism, but full-on multiple-personality-causing urban legend satanism. The cult member in my friend’s group escaped the cult, but has since lived in fear, to the point of getting appearance-altering plastic sugery, becuase the cult was made up of high standing members of the community, from police officers to politicians (so, of course, reporting the abuse was out of the question), and they threatened to kill anyone who left the cult.

So, my bullshit radar went off. When I said to my friend, “That’s bullshit, there’s no documentation of satanic cults. It was all hysteria and bad therapy,” my friend promptly freaked out, claiming that there was no way that this person would lie.

But, really, there’s no such thing, right? There’s no creepy underground masonic/illuminati/satanic stuff going on with our respected officials, or could there be small factions of crazy communities who sacrifice animals and try to kill people who escape? I mean, cults exist, how much of a leap is it to go all-out satanic? Or does the lack of documented evidence just render the whole thing impossible? Or is it undocumented because those who document these kinds of things are in on it?

Woah. I’m getting a little too conspiracy theoried here. Someone else sort this out for me, please.

ZJ

There are Satan worshipper sects. One’s from Europe that migrated to the U.S. long ago and the tradition is passed down to the next generation and so on…Also in my case during the early 70’s..a prominent leader who revolted against the Church of Satan moved to my hometown to form a kind of pre-“Temple of Set”. The idea was to perform rituals that derived from Judeo-Christian concepts. Kids were programmed to believe if they were murdered by their friends, they would return as a captain to rule over 40 legions of demons. Totally delusional by my standards. There was an elderly + wealthy sect that controlled about 4 seperate Satan cults to perform these rituals in the woods. This sect was interrogated after the death of a young man, however the ritual was practiced often by other divisions where upon no body was found. When the young man’s body was discovered there was no physical evidence to hold water in court. 2 boys were convicted of the crime while 48 others were there that night. Pastor Harry Snook de-programmed 90 teenage Devil worshippers in the community. It was in 1971 and it was vast. In South Jersey there is a town called Vineland. I believe the original attraction for witches/Satan worshippers revolved around the popularity of the “Palace of Depression” built by George Dayner in the 1930’s. You can research the history of the palace on the net and decide whether or not it may have been an influence on people who follow the left hand path. I witnessed a great many horrific events in those days. However..I do not believe in the supernatural or any Demi God and so I find all the inflicted pain from Devil worshippers placed upon children to be merely their own physical being and not a ritual..but an excuse for something else ..maybe mental? I grew up in this environment and yes..they are wealthy and powerful!

[Czarcasm]

@Enidi

There are Satan worshipper sects. One’s from Europe that migrated to the U.S. long ago and the tradition is passed down to the next generation and so on…Also in my case during the early 70’s..a prominent leader who revolted against the Church of Satan moved to my hometown to form a kind of pre-“Temple of Set”. The idea was to perform rituals that derived from Judeo-Christian concepts. Kids were programmed to believe if they were murdered by their friends, they would return as a captain to rule over 40 legions of demons. Totally delusional by my standards. There was an elderly + wealthy sect that controlled about 4 seperate Satan cults to perform these rituals in the woods. This sect was interrogated after the death of a young man, however the ritual was practiced often by other divisions where upon no body was found. When the young man’s body was discovered there was no physical evidence to hold water in court. 2 boys were convicted of the crime while 48 others were there that night. Pastor Harry Snook de-programmed 90 teenage Devil worshippers in the community. It was in 1971 and it was vast. In South Jersey there is a town called Vineland. I believe the original attraction for witches/Satan worshippers revolved around the popularity of the “Palace of Depression” built by George Dayner in the 1930’s. You can research the history of the palace on the net and decide whether or not it may have been an influence on people who follow the left hand path. I witnessed a great many horrific events in those days. However..I do not believe in the supernatural or any Demi God and so I find all the inflicted pain from Devil worshippers placed upon children to be merely their own physical being and not a ritual..but an excuse for something else ..maybe mental? I grew up in this environment and yes..they are wealthy and powerful!

Any cites from neutral sources?

[vislor]

@Terrifel

Hey, I already admitted to being a gamer. And everyone knows that Dungeons and Dragons turns you into an acolyte of Baphomet.* I believe Jack Chick wrote extensively on this fact. Baphomet is of course the god of sarcasm, so every word his disciples utter must be weighed carefully for its true meaning. A useful clue is the ‘rolled eyes’ expression, which among worshipers of Baphomet is a sign of complete fidelity and sincerity. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

*Seriously, does anyone remember a show, I’m pretty sure it was PTL Club during the height of the Satanic scare, that had an episode devoted to exposing the true inner secrets of Roleplaying Games as Expressway to Damnation? They interviewed this one guy, ostensibly a “Dungeon Master,” who appeared in full hooded robe-and-staff sorceror regalia! This isn’t just a false memory of mine, is it? Who *was * that guy?

I have played RPGs and DND since 1980, so was around during the DND scare of the late 80s.

I have a friend who was not allowed to play because of the PTL or 700 club show. I didn’t watch it, neither did my parents thankfully, so can’t say for sure.

I went to a Catholic school system and my sophomore year in school, in religion class, we were shown a video about what it meant to be a “good Catholic.” The hosts were teenage Ken and Barbie and they brought in the “Satanist” (a goth metal looking person before goth) who also happened to play DND. I sat near the front and felt every eye turn toward me, since it was hardly a secret that I played. It was a wonderful case of correlation is not causation in that just because this person plays DND and worships satan doesn’t mean all who play DND worship satan.

There is BADD, Bothered about DND, but that was started by a mom who lost her son to suicide and wanted something to blame, rather than herself. It’s tragic.

And, yes, the Jack Chick traks are awesome and terrible at the same time. Awesome for what they think DND is and terrible that anyone believes them at all.

As for the topic at hand, I have done internet research for some RPGs and I found no credible evidence that cults like this exist. I ended up having to make up my own stuff because except for LaVay there was nothing out there I could find.

Satanism seems to be one of those good scapegoats for someone to use to get people all riled up so that something else is missed or for the defense of someone. But I couldn’t find any organized cults myself.

[BrainGlutton]

@Enidi

There are Satan worshipper sects. One’s from Europe that migrated to the U.S. long ago and the tradition is passed down to the next generation and so on…

Pre-LaVeyan fam-trad Satanism?! Cite for that, please!

[Czarcasm]

He baited the hook, no one bit, and he left.
I don’t think he’s coming back.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Czarcasm

Any cites from neutral sources?

I second the request for cites. Police reports, contemporaneous news accounts and the like are to be preferred.

The idea is ludicrous, of course, for several reasons:

1. We live in an information-saturated environment that makes it hard for serial killers to be left alone. Bathory et al lived in an age of isolation and localized absolute power that made their work comparatively easy, but for today’s psychopath, they need to prey on the weakest members of society (e.g., prostitutes), and/or spread their attacks out over massively wide areas and over a very long time. They rarely operate with a partner, and I’m unaware of any serial killer who’s operated with more than one partner, much less as part of a network that engages in periodic killings of local victims.
2. The risk-to-reward ratio is way off. Posit a delusional sociopath who wants victims for Satan: why would they tell other people about what they’re doing, when a single “traitor” could bring everyone in the conspiracy down? They’d operate independely, not in a network.
3. The total lack of evidence is damning. Every time the Satanic Panic emerges, we end up with a lot of eyewitness accounts but no material evidence. Compare this to cases of real serial killers, where there are always bodies found.
4. The Strange Loop: if somehow there were conspirators capable of hiding the tremendous amount of evidence they created, they’d have to be extraordinarily powerful deceivers. Wouldn’t it be much, much easier for those deceivers to create the tiny bit of evidence you’re looking at to affirm the conspiracy?

I think #4 is likeliest to account for the story in the OP. Either we’ve got a network of tremendously powerful people engaging in a suicidally stupid conspiracy to murder people and then hiding all evidence of their crimes from an extremely hostile public; or we’ve got one dude lying in a therapy group. The second deception matches Occam’s razor a lot better than the first.

[Czarcasm]

It’s almost as if there are religionists that, while saying they have no need to show evidence for their god, are desparate to find evidence for their devil.

[Jackmannii]

I can believe there was a place in New Jersey called the Palace of Depression.

In fact, that describes most of the state.

[BrainGlutton]

From the RationalWiki page on Satanism: (RationalWiki: A Wholly-Owned Subsidiary of HellCorp.TM.)

Another more sociological division of Satanists:

• Organized Satanism: These are organized, publicly known Satanic groups. They oppose criminal activity and have well-developed theologies which they often publish electronically or in printed form. Again, the best-known example would be the Church of Satan.
• Dabbler Satanism: People (usually teenagers) who turn to Satanism as a form of rebellion against their parents, school, church, etc. Generally, they lack a well-developed theology. They are often involved in petty crimes such as vandalism, although occasionally, they have been linked to more serious criminal activity, including property theft, assault, and the murder of animals, including pets. Most of them grow out of their Satanism, although some will develop into another form of Satanism over time.
• “Sicko” Satanism: Criminals and psychopathic individuals who use Satanism as a justification for criminal activities such as murder, rape, child molestation, etc. Generally lack a developed theology. In some cases the trappings of Satanism are used to try to scare victims (especially children) and prevent them from reporting the crimes. They are most commonly loners or occasionally small groups. One notorious example was the Ripper Crew[2], a gang of serial killers in Chicago in the early '80s.
• “Showbiz” Satanism: Musical and other groups who use the trappings of Satanism for artistic purposes. Sometimes this is meant seriously, the musician being an actual adherent of organized Satanism and seeing his or her art as a vehicle for spreading Satanic ideas. This is most commonly associated with the heavy metal subgenre known as “black metal”, which was associated with a series of church burnings in Norway in the mid '90s.[3] In other cases, Satanism is not adopted as a belief system but rather chosen to be shocking or outrageous, or due to an artistic preference for “dark” imagery. Such was the case with many metal bands in the '70s and '80s, like KISS, AC/DC, and Black Sabbath.

The OP seems to be based on the assumption that “Organized Satanism” and “Sicko Satanism” are the same thing – but I suspect any instances of “Sicko Satanism” actually documented will have, perhaps, something to do with “Dabbler Satanism,” but nothing to do with “Organized.”

See also the page on “Satanic Panic”:

The recent phenomenon of Satanic Panic originated during the 1970s[1] – and gained traction during the 1980s and 1990s – when a widespread belief took hold within American[2] evangelical Christianity that a vast underground network of Satanists is in control of secular society. Thankfully, Satanic Panic seems to have died down quite a bit during the 2000s, possibly because fundamentalists now have other things to panic about.

Origins

The 1972 publication of The Satan Seller by Mike Warnke played a large part in launching this scare. Warnke continued to be referenced by the mainstream media as an “authority” on Satanism until his story was exposed as fraudulent in 1992. Unfortunately, this revelation has had little effect on majority of people who choose to believe in the power of Satan – i.e., fundamentalist Christians. During the late 1970s, John Todd became a brief sensation speaking in fundamentalist churches claiming witches, druids, and the Illuminati were in control of world politics, media, and even most churches. Todd and his claims were likewise exposed as fraudulent, but he continued to be promoted by fundamentalists like Jack Chick. The scare was given another boost with the popularity of the 1980 book Michelle Remembers by Michelle Smith, an alleged memoir of Satanic ritual abuse which was also exposed as a fraud. Other claims proliferated during the early 1980s, including backward masking of Satanic messages in rock music, Dungeons and Dragons and heavy metal music as occult recruiting tools, disappearing pets and poisoned candy at Halloween as part of a larger conspiracy, and most significantly, underground movements of Satanists engaged in human sacrifice, “breeding” of children for same, ritual child abuse, and other crime.

Satanic panic spread to society at large when law enforcement agencies began taking the wild claims made by evangelical Christians at face value. They used – and, on occasion, still use – such allegations as a basis for investigations of occult activity on the assumption that these activities (often committed by harmless neopagan groups or teenagers) is part of a broader conspiracy. Or, worse yet, that these activities are precursors to major crimes like kidnapping, rape and murder.[3]

As law enforcement linked more and more crimes to Satanic rituals, the popular media took notice. Something that would have been considered ridiculous a decade or two earlier now had the authority of government behind it. Soon, hundreds of books, newspapers articles and TV stories helped spread Satanic panic throughout North America. An early example of this was when Geraldo Rivera did a 1988 TV special on alleged Satanic activity and it became the most widely viewed documentary ever aired on NBC[4], even as more responsible media editorials panned it as sensationalistic trash, and panned NBC for airing it[5][6]. Occasionally, certain popular media outlets will still run a “Did Satanism play a role in this crime?” story.

Stereotypical characteristics of Satanists and Satanism

Evangelicals and the police and prosecutors that they influence usually believe that the network(s) of Satan worshipers are characterized by the following:

• There are families of devil worshippers, and they tend to be multigenerational.
• Teenagers are enticed to join Satanic cults.
• Human sacrifice.
• Disappearing pets are used for animal sacrifice.
• Ritual child abuse.
• Satanist networks are part of a broader conspiracy, e.g. the Illuminati.
• Wiccans and other neopagans are Satanic in nature.
• Wiccan symbols such as the pentagram are signs of Satanic activity. Some Christian books on Satanism (and materials provided to law enforcement) included the peace symbol and the anarchy symbol in their lists of “Satanic symbols” to watch out for. Warning! There are pentagrams in the American flag and in the EU flag.
• Some parts of popular culture are functioning as recruiting tools for Satanism, including heavy metal music and the game Dungeons and Dragons.
• Halloween is a Satanic holiday; urban legends and scares over poisoned candy were claimed to be the work of Satanic cults.
• Some towns, agencies, or even major corporations (i.e. Procter & Gamble) are secretly under the control of Satanists.
• Satanist “infiltration” of the military.
• Washington, D.C. is infested with Satanic symbols designed into the city.
• Atheists are really satanists.

[bump]

@Cliffy

There are surely a few groups of amoral teenage pricks out there who try to justify their sad existence by praying to Satan. And occasionally some of them might get so caught up in the fantasy that they commit a crime or two. But them they get caught, because you can’t hide stuff like that. The big, sprawling secret organizations that all the city fathers belong to? They don’t exist.

–Cliffy

That’s essentially what I was going to say- something that out of the pale wouldn’t stay a secret very long- someone would talk or someone would write a book in hopes of cashing in.

[BrainGlutton]

@bump

That’s essentially what I was going to say- something that out of the pale wouldn’t stay a secret very long- someone would talk or someone would write a book in hopes of cashing in.

You really mean that and believe that, don’t you?

Eeeeexcellent.

[the_diego]

If they’re not the ones stealing blessed sacraments from Catholic churches in my country, it’s probably the Iglesia Ni Cristo.

[BrainGlutton]

@the_diego

If they’re not the ones stealing blessed sacraments from Catholic churches in my country, it’s probably the Iglesia Ni Cristo.

What, this? Doesn’t look Satanic. (But it’s gotta be, you can tell from the Masonic compass in the logo.)

As for “stealing blessed sacraments” – sounds like what you’d need for the Black Mass – a mostly-and-probably-entirely apocryphal form of “Satanism” sacrilegious and shocking to Catholics, boring to anyone else.

[Kuru]

@Czarcasm

Any cites from neutral sources?

Don’t know if you’d call it neutral, but here you go

[Enidi]

I am sorry but I failed to mention that I am new to this website. I personally don’t have a vast knowledge on this subject. I witnessed a great deal and everything I claim is from experiences. I am not a true victim of extreme measures like some of my friends were. I conversed with police officers/detectives who worked the case for 2 years and they failed to disprove the lame theory that it was 3 boys tripping on LSD, were confused youths, and flaunting the attention of the darkside. It always makes me laugh , but whenever a young cult is hauled in for questioning…the psycho anyalizing revolves around the kids having a misfit image and as a result engage in drug consumption for either attention or just being mentally ill and from my experience that does not have value in all Satan cult killing cases.

If kids are fooling about with the experimentation of drugs…it really has little to do with the elderly sect who is more concerned with programming their minds. In my case for example…picture yourself waking up 1 day and reading the front page of the newspaper and being totally in shock with the realization that they are printing either lies or taking on the fringe/surface story of the ritual murder and only hinting at the mystery behind it. I’ve had horrible experiences such as a person working roots on me or being dragged through the dirt/mud by a Satan cult, thrown by the roadside and told in a very inventive language to never enter the woods again…but I never experienced Satanic ritual abuse which is more about taunting, torture, and programming. My mind (even as a child) insisted on disbelieving in religions and cults, finding it farce, acting ignorant claiming it to be a world of the pretend/childlike nature and that ignorance toward the supernatural or Apocalyptic fanatics has kept me alive all these years.

[Czarcasm]

@Enidi

I am sorry but I failed to mention that I am new to this website. I personally don’t have a vast knowledge on this subject. I witnessed a great deal and everything I claim is from experiences. I am not a true victim of extreme measures like some of my friends were. I conversed with police officers/detectives who worked the case for 2 years and they failed to disprove the lame theory that it was 3 boys tripping on LSD, were confused youths, and flaunting the attention of the darkside. It always makes me laugh , but whenever a young cult is hauled in for questioning..the psycho anyalizing revolves around the kids having a misfit image and as a result engage in drug consumption for either attention or just being mentally ill and from my experience that does not have value in all Satan cult killing cases.

If kids are fooling about with the experimentation of drugs…it really has little to do with the elderly sect who is more concerned with programming their minds. In my case for example..picture yourself waking up 1 day and reading the front page of the newspaper and being totally in shock with the realization that they are printing either lies or taking on the fringe/surface story of the ritual murder and only hinting at the mystery behind it. I’ve had horrible experiences such as a person working roots on me or being dragged through the dirt/mud by a Satan cult, thrown by the roadside and told in a very inventive language to never enter the woods again..but I never experienced Satanic ritual abuse which is more about taunting, torture, and programming. My mind (even as a child) insisted on disbelieving in religions and cults, finding it farce, acting ignorant claiming it to be a world of the pretend/childlike nature and that ignorance toward the supernatural or Apocalyptic fanatics has kept me alive all these years.

When asked for cites, even more unsubstantiated claims don’t cut it. Vague claims like yours help create an atmosphere in this country that wasted time and valuable police and court resources, and ruined people lives.

[Enidi]

@LonesomePolecat

Or he’s just a damn liar. Let’s not forget there are plenty of people who will tell wild tales for no good reason at all. Lots of people have claimed to have been involved in Satanic cults which practiced human sacrifice. Not one story has ever held up under close examination.

This is catch 22 because the victim who is being questioned and later de-programmed is under stress related measures from police officials. A youth may consider their odds. If they actually attempt to turn in an elderly/wealthy sect , it is questionable if their testimony will be enough to convict them..and if the kid is released, he/she knows they are in danger and could be murdered by the sect. Another reason why some of these kids take their own lives in jail. Some are protected, but who is to say just how safe they are? One girl in particular was abused by a cult in my hometown and she escaped with nothing but the clothes on her back and is now married to a federal officer who protects her from cult members.

[Czarcasm]

@Enidi

This is catch 22 because the victim who is being questioned and later de-programmed is under stress related measures from police officials. A youth may consider their odds. If they actually attempt to turn in an elderly/wealthy sect , it is questionable if their testimony will be enough to convict them..and if the kid is released, he/she knows they are in danger and could be murdered by the sect. Another reason why some of these kids take their own lives in jail. Some are protected, but who is to say just how safe they are? One girl in particular was abused by a cult in my hometown and she escaped with nothing but the clothes on her back and is now married to a federal officer who protects her from cult members.

And you add another unsubstantiated story to your list. Would you mind not doing this any more, and just give us some evidence for the claims you’ve already made? The last thing we need is another witch hunt fueled by people like you.
edited to add: Could you give us the name of your hometown?

[Kuru]

This case seems to be a once off incident rather than part of a string off similar deaths. It’s bizarre, yes, but on face value doesn’t seem to be part of a larger conspiracy by an organised satanic cult.

Why did the police pursue the case for 2 years after the boys had confessed and been sentenced to gaol?

Also, this incident appears to have affected you greatly. Have you ever thought of getting an FOI order to have a look at the notes of the case? (Assuming FOIs allow that.)

[Enidi]

It sometimes feels like a paradoxical situation. The victim could be considered delusional because to a degree they have been programmed. They have been taunted, tortured, and are not …quote on quote… in the proper state of mind. It doesn’t mean they are not telling the truth just because they have triggers from within that are like timebombs going off during a holiday. The sect who programmed them are sadistic in nature and are quite delusional themselves. So…do you do not think that is worthy to ponder over? That is the catch 22 itself. Do we believe the victim when we doubt the existence of sects who are wealthy and powerful? True…some victims do lie. Maybe they lie to cover for someone or perhaps they want to flaunt sadistic rubbish for the public? They were still tortured by members of a sect though…so it’s left to the expert agents who de-programme them to decide what the truth is…however…that truth is many times hidden based on circumstantial evidence and the sect will flee elsewhere and start over.