# So... Do You Think Anyone is Actually Grieving bin Laden? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 5, 2011, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-you-think-anyone-is-actually-grieving-bin-laden/580773 "2011-05-05T00:10:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![The\_Man\_With\_The\_Golden\_Gun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@The\_Man\_With\_The\_Golden\_Gun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_With_The_Golden_Gun)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-you-think-anyone-is-actually-grieving-bin-laden/580773/21 "2011-05-06T01:25:50Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > The mentally ill. Not even them. Hell, I’ve got more mental issues than the last dozen school shooters put together and I’m sure as hell not sad over him dying. ---
**Author:** ![Unintentionally\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unintentionally_blank/32/5418_2.png) [@Unintentionally\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unintentionally_Blank)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-you-think-anyone-is-actually-grieving-bin-laden/580773/22 "2011-05-06T02:10:59Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > How can you know or even speculate on that? His eyes. They looked…shifty. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Dahnlor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dahnlor/32/533_2.png) [@Dahnlor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dahnlor)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-you-think-anyone-is-actually-grieving-bin-laden/580773/23 "2011-05-06T02:33:27Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Random nitpick: the fiddle wasn’t invented until centuries after the death of Emperor Nero. What was he fiddling with while Rome burned? EDIT: Oh, a [lyre](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyre). ---
**Author:** ![Dereknocue67](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6de8d8/32.png) [@Dereknocue67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dereknocue67)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-you-think-anyone-is-actually-grieving-bin-laden/580773/24 "2011-05-06T09:00:53Z")
Actually grieving? Well, I’ve heard the Abbottabad franchise of ‘Shrines R Us’ is upset he was buried at sea. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-you-think-anyone-is-actually-grieving-bin-laden/580773/25 "2011-05-06T12:15:42Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > He was probably abusive. That is just speculation. In the real world, much evil is a product of the “them and us” mentality. Just because OBL was capable of committing atorcities towards some groups of people doesn’t automatically mean he treated his own the same way. OBL was probably no more evil than many people you see posting on message boards, who believe that 9/11 would justify for blanket reprisals against the arab world, or that Japan deserved their recent tsunami because of pearl harbour. > [@R.P.McMurphy](#): > > Psychopaths have very pedestrian characteristics. John Wayne Gacy liked to dress up like a clown. Idi Amin drove around in his Jeep without bodyguards. Nero liked to play the fiddle. Dick Cheney liked to drink, go hunting and shoot his friends in the face. Mohamar Gaddafi likes stupid hats. Is there any evidence that OBL was a psychopath though? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-you-think-anyone-is-actually-grieving-bin-laden/580773/26 "2011-05-06T14:08:08Z")
> [@rocking\_chair](#): > > it is possible that his relatives, and compatriots mourn him. Probably not his siblings, though - my understanding is that they (quite rightly) turned their backs on him some years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-you-think-anyone-is-actually-grieving-bin-laden/580773/27 "2011-05-06T16:02:33Z")
I’m certain someone grieves for him. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-you-think-anyone-is-actually-grieving-bin-laden/580773/28 "2011-05-06T19:09:53Z")
George W. Bush Sarah Palin Donald Trump ---
**Author:** ![flodnak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/838e76/32.png) [@flodnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flodnak)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2011, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-you-think-anyone-is-actually-grieving-bin-laden/580773/29 "2011-05-06T19:29:42Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Probably not his siblings, though - my understanding is that they (quite rightly) turned their backs on him some years ago. True, but they may still have hoped that against all odds, he’d come to his senses and be their brother Osama again - and now it’s too late for that. I wouldn’t be surprised if they’re grieving for the lost opportunity. I once saw a photo taken of the bin Laden family on a vacation abroad - London, perhaps? It was taken way back, before the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and the Mujahideen, back when the bin Ladens were just another wealthy Saudi family with a successful business and most people had never heard of them. The big O was clean-shaven and dressed in Western clothing, which was enough of a surprise, but what sticks with me most is that he had an honest smile, without the crazy look in his eyes. A young man enjoying the good life with his big family. He wasn’t always a monster. He was a normal person once. Those who knew him then may well be grieving for the young man they remember. ---
**Author:** ![R.P.McMurphy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7993a0/32.png) [@R.P.McMurphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R.P.McMurphy)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-you-think-anyone-is-actually-grieving-bin-laden/580773/30 "2011-05-07T00:50:17Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > Is there any evidence that OBL was a psychopath though? Just by being lazy in determining a criteria, if someone kills thousand of people, most of whom are innocent victims just to make a political statement, then they fall into my definition of being a psychopath. He was not the least bit worried about collateral damage even if it involved fellow Muslims. This is true of 9/11 and the embassy bombings. His mentality had no moral check as to the fact that he would be killing innocents and he did nothing to minimize collateral deaths. Same thing with the guys involved in the Oklahoma City bombing. Argue with me but bin Laden fits my definition of a psychopath. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-you-think-anyone-is-actually-grieving-bin-laden/580773/31 "2011-05-07T01:30:10Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > How can you know or even speculate on that? Because some people find it comforting to divide up the world into things which are 100% good and things which are 100% bad. It makes life simple. Even simpler if you let somebody else make the decisions about what’s good and bad. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-you-think-anyone-is-actually-grieving-bin-laden/580773/32 "2011-05-07T08:16:53Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > He was probably abusive. Actually, there are accounts that he wasn’t. Lawrence Wright’s “The Looming Tower”, which is a book about how the 9/11 terror plot developed, described him as a strict and demanding, but loving parent who enjoyed spending time and playing with his children, and that he was especially solicitous of his hydrocephalic, mildly mentally retarded son, being careful to include him in activities, and that, when he was in Afghanistan, even though he publicly condemned music and images of people and animals, he would listen to cassette tapes with his daughter, give his children coloring books and let his younger sons play Nintendo. As a friend of both the bin Laden and Zawahiri children in the compound said that the families “had their ups and downs but they were pretty much normal kids. They had pretty much a normal childhood.” ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-you-think-anyone-is-actually-grieving-bin-laden/580773/33 "2011-05-07T08:20:07Z")
> [@flodnak](#): > > I once saw a photo taken of the bin Laden family on a vacation abroad - London, perhaps? It was taken way back, before the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and the Mujahideen, back when the bin Ladens were just another wealthy Saudi family with a successful business and most people had never heard of them. The big O was clean-shaven and dressed in Western clothing, which was enough of a surprise, but what sticks with me most is that he had an honest smile, without the crazy look in his eyes. A young man enjoying the good life with his big family. He wasn’t always a monster. He was a normal person once. Those who knew him then may well be grieving for the young man they remember. This is probably the picture you mean? > **[Alex Jones' Endgame](http://www.endgamethemovie.com/)** Osama is the circled one. He’s 15 in the picture, and very much a victim of 70s fashion. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-you-think-anyone-is-actually-grieving-bin-laden/580773/34 "2011-05-07T09:17:07Z")
> [@R.P.McMurphy](#): > > Just by being lazy in determining a criteria, if someone kills thousand of people, most of whom are innocent victims just to make a political statement, then they fall into my definition of being a psychopath. He was not the least bit worried about collateral damage even if it involved fellow Muslims. This is true of 9/11 and the embassy bombings. His mentality had no moral check as to the fact that he would be killing innocents and he did nothing to minimize collateral deaths. Same thing with the guys involved in the Oklahoma City bombing. > > Argue with me but bin Laden fits my definition of a psychopath. It firmly fits my definition of evil, but from what I’ve heard about OBL he does not meet the medical definition of a [Psychopath](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopaths). The hallmark of a psychopath is an abnormal lack of empathy. Certainly, OBL demonstrated this lack towards his victims, but psychopaths are incapable of empathy towards anyone. I think it’s an important distinction. History is littered with atrocities and acts of genocide. I don’t think it’s accurate or useful to label all the perpatrators as psychopaths. Would you call everyone involved in the holocaust, the Rwandan genocide or perpetuating slavery a psychopath? I’m talking about the mundanity of evil. Evil isn’t usually a giggling supervillain, it’s the concentration camp guard who goes home at the end of the day to read a bed-time story to his son. Normal people are capable of incredible acts of cruelty towards those they dehumanise. ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2011, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-you-think-anyone-is-actually-grieving-bin-laden/580773/35 "2011-05-07T16:57:51Z")
> [@R.P.McMurphy](#): > > Just by being lazy in determining a criteria, if someone kills thousand of people, most of whom are innocent victims just to make a political statement, then they fall into my definition of being a psychopath. He was not the least bit worried about collateral damage even if it involved fellow Muslims. This is true of 9/11 and the embassy bombings. His mentality had no moral check as to the fact that he would be killing innocents and he did nothing to minimize collateral deaths. Same thing with the guys involved in the Oklahoma City bombing. > > Argue with me but bin Laden fits my definition of a psychopath. They were not innocent in his mind. Recall [bin Laden’s letter from 2002](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver): > [@](#): > > [after listing off a bunch of American-supported actions against Islam] > (3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake: > > (a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want. > > (b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates. > > (c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us. > > (d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us. > > (e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-you-think-anyone-is-actually-grieving-bin-laden/580773/36 "2011-05-08T04:28:37Z")
A lot of people around the world do not like America. They were happy Bin Laden was trying to hurt us. He had lots of follower and sympathizers. Many people are mourning him and feel terrible. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-you-think-anyone-is-actually-grieving-bin-laden/580773/37 "2011-05-08T04:46:28Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I believe its been said nobody “normal” ever loved Hitler. Millions loved Hitler. And Stalin and Mao for that matter. Most were uninformed or misinformed. That does not make them abnormal in any way. Everyone is uninformed about some things and misinformed about others. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-you-think-anyone-is-actually-grieving-bin-laden/580773/38 "2011-05-08T05:10:20Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > A lot of people around the world do not like America. They were happy Bin Laden was trying to hurt us. He had lots of follower and sympathizers. Many people are mourning him and feel terrible. Incidentally 58% of Chinese netizens actually really think so. Apparently forgetting that Bin Laden was just as willing to kill Chinese for Xinjiang as Americans/ ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-you-think-anyone-is-actually-grieving-bin-laden/580773/39 "2011-05-08T05:17:59Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Incidentally 58% of Chinese netizens actually really think so. Apparently forgetting that Bin Laden was just as willing to kill Chinese for Xinjiang as Americans/ Where does that number come from? ---
**Author:** ![Quia\_Sic\_Dico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/bbce88/32.png) [@Quia\_Sic\_Dico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quia_Sic_Dico)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2011, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-you-think-anyone-is-actually-grieving-bin-laden/580773/40 "2011-05-08T12:02:40Z")
I’m certainly not an Al Qaeda sympathizer in any way, and I’m not mentally ill, either. Regardless, I always feel sorry for people who are liquidated, including bin Laden. I don’t really know much about his personal or ahem, professional life, but I don’t see why his political activities should make him an unpleasant fellow in his private life. I’m also prepared to admit that he had as much right to fight his enemies as they had to fight him. Nevertheless, while saying that I grieve his death would probably be putting it too strongly, it did dampen my mood a bit when I first read about his death. Whatever else he might have been, he was a human being. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-you-think-anyone-is-actually-grieving-bin-laden/580773.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-do-you-think-anyone-is-actually-grieving-bin-laden/580773.md?page=3)