# So does presentation count for anything anymore? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 14, 2003, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-does-presentation-count-for-anything-anymore/188415 "2003-07-14T16:40:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![auntie\_em](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@auntie\_em](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/auntie_em)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-does-presentation-count-for-anything-anymore/188415/1 "2003-07-14T16:40:56Z")
As many of you know, we’re short one staff member Chez Auntie EM’s Job (long story short, MC has not called _us_ (though she did send an email request that her paycheck be deposited into her bank account) but has spoken with countless other people–including her lawyer, whom she told that she was “wilderness camping”, one of her (ex-) clients, whom she told that she was in the hospital, _and_ one of our Board members, whom she told that she quit this job because she was being mistreated–so we know that she’s alive and well). So for the past week, we’ve been wading through the 100+ resumes we received in response to the employment ad. for MC’s old job. My boss’s main focus has been job experience–namely whether or not the applicant appears (based on his/her previous experience) to want _this_ job, or just _a_ job. My coworker’s focus has been job history: if the applicant has had more jobs in five years than he (at retirement age) has had in a lifetime, he raises a critical eyebrow. Me? I’m all about presentation. Applicable experience and apparent “staying power” are important as well, of course, but I just think that a good cover letter (or lack thereof) can tell you almost as much about a person as the content of his/her resume. If s/he didn’t bother to write a cover letter, or wrote a lame, four-line form letter that could apply to any job, I was decidedly unimpressed. With scads of appropriate experience, the person might still make my “B” list, but overall I gave “A” list status to people with applicable experience who’d clearly made an effort to sell themselves for this job with well-conceived and well-executed cover letter/resume combos. Once the applications had been narrowed down, my boss and I had a pow-wow to discuss the applicants who’d made the preliminary cut, mainly in terms of what we did and didn’t like about them thus far. We both agreed that one particular applicant, though she had decent experience, should be taken out of the running because she submitted the _weirdest_ cover and resume I’ve ever seen! Not weird in a fun, “Notice Me!” kind of way, but weird in a deadly-serious “I Worship At The Altar of Oprah, Where Professionalism (Not to Mention Proper Spelling and Grammar) Takes a Backseat to the Bare-Breasted Heralding of My Inner Goddess” kind of way. The damn thing was FIVE PAGES LONG and the first two of those pages were dedicated to enumerating aspects of her personality with the use of words like “Empowered” and “Vivacious” (see what I mean about the Oprah?). I do give her an “A” for effort, but a five-page submission that’s replete with errors, lacks dates of employment and makes no mention of the particular position sought ain’t gonna make my “A” _list_. Had there been no other applicants with better (or at least equal) experience, I could see calling her in. But dude, we had over a hundred resumes, so this was hardly the case. Imagine my surprise, then, when my boss let me know this morning that Oprah-Woman was among the people he’d chosen to interview! No, he’s still not particularly interested in hiring her, he said, but he can’t NOT interview her, because her experience (once you get to that part after wading through 50 pages of Iyanla Vanzant-isms) leaves him without a good excuse to exclude her from the pool of interviewees. In other words, if she should call to ask why she didn’t get an interview, he won’t be able to use the “you didn’t have appropriate experience” excuse. So basically, he’s just trying to cover his ass so that he won’t get into trouble if she gets upset about not having made the cut. (I personally call “bullshit” on this one, because when he was hiring for _my_ job–which is basically Finance–he had numerous math, econ, and accounting folks who applied, yet he hired ME, an English major who couldn’t rub two sticks together, because she could barely _count_ two sticks!) And the truth is, who knows . . . ? She could come in here, wow us all, get hired, and do an incredible job with her empowered self. I suppose I’m a little biased, because I am currently in the market for a job myself (so that I can actually live with my husband), _and_ I am a former English teacher, so Spelling and Grammar are my special friends (and are often the hills on which I am prepared to lay down my life)–but it’s frustrating for me to know that taking the time to craft a good cover letter and resume basically means bunk in the face of the possibility that someone might get pissed off if she doesn’t get an interview. (How’s THAT for a run-on sentence? Hey, I said “Teacher”, not “Grammar Nazi” . . . . ;)) And how fair is it to _her_ that she’s taking time out to come and interview for a job when the interviewer has already decided that she doesn’t really have a shot (barring the possibility that she really _is_ Oprah)? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-does-presentation-count-for-anything-anymore/188415/2 "2003-07-14T17:26:20Z")
No. It’s a waste of everyone’s time. Maybe she just took some bad “cover letter advice” and might turn out to be the gal for the gig. But since your boss already made up his mind, he should cancel her interview. I’ve gone on interviews that were decided before the fact. It’s fucking depressing, especially if you’re really interested in the position. ---
**Author:** ![skeptic\_ev](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@skeptic\_ev](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skeptic_ev)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-does-presentation-count-for-anything-anymore/188415/3 "2003-07-14T17:56:55Z")
I am _so_ with you on this one, **Auntie Em**. Admittedly, I’m an English geek (but not nazi) myself, but there are rational reasons to give much weight to the way someone crafts his or her resume/cover letter. I’ve enumerated the ones I can think of below. 1. A carefully crafted cover letter shows attention to detail. 2. It also shows that the person cares about _this_ job, as opposed to just any job. (Important to your boss, no?) 3. Someone who writes a bang-up cover letter can communicate well, and communication skills are essential for most jobs. (If you end up working with the Oprah woman, do you really think you’ll ever get a succinct, coherent work-related communication from her?) 4. A cover letter that follows all appropriate conventions shows that the letter writer either was already familiar with accepted business practice (shows experience) or did a little research to figure out the best way to approach writing the letter (shows initiative). Again, I must offer as a caveat that I am a technical writer by profession and a language lover by nature, so I may not fit in with the status quo. [slight hijack]It is really, _really_ annoying to spend time crafting a sleek, focused cover letter only to never get a response from the prospective employer. It’s common practice, I know, but rude nonetheless.[/slight hijack] ---
**Author:** ![DeVena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dec6dc/32.png) [@DeVena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeVena)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-does-presentation-count-for-anything-anymore/188415/4 "2003-07-14T18:15:28Z")
This might come as a shock to you. You might want to sit down. Your boss, my dear sweet **auntie em** , is an idiot. How’s your resume? Do you need to update it again, listing that you have experience working with the mentally challanged (not to mention missing) cow-orker. Add supervisor to that list. It’s like teaching a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig. (The Oprah-apostle being the pig.) ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-does-presentation-count-for-anything-anymore/188415/5 "2003-07-14T18:47:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by auntie em \* > \*\* > Not weird in a fun, “Notice Me!” kind of way, but weird in a deadly-serious "I Worship At The Altar of Oprah, Where Professionalism (Not to Mention Proper Spelling and Grammar) Takes a Backseat to the Bare-Breasted \*\* See, I would have hired her right there! Now _that’s_ presentation. Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m late for my singing lesson. ---
**Author:** ![auntie\_em](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@auntie\_em](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/auntie_em)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-does-presentation-count-for-anything-anymore/188415/6 "2003-07-14T18:56:16Z")
**Skeptic\_ev** , I wrote a reply to you, but alas, the hamsters were hungry today. I won’t try to re-create it here (suffice it to say that it was brilliant–my best work to date, I think), I’ll just nutshell it by saying RIGHT ON, Brother (Sister?) and thanks for understanding. You make excellent points (but as my boss reminded me, the person who held this position previously had the spelling and grammar skills of a sock monkey with a broken typewriter, so anyone who can spell C-A-T has a leg up). Also, I don’t know if you’ve seen the thread, but would you be interested in attending the upcoming KC Area Dopefest? I would give you a link, except that’s what caused me hamster-trouble with my last (attempted) post. If you’re interested, email me or something. 🙂 **DeVena** , my hat is off to you for the excellent suggestions you made in terms of updating my resume, and for coining the best new term/band name to come along in awhile: **Oprapostle!** 😃 ---
**Author:** ![scout1222](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/34f0e0/32.png) [@scout1222](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scout1222)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-does-presentation-count-for-anything-anymore/188415/7 "2003-07-14T19:17:59Z")
You know, just because it’s you, **auntie em** , I’m gonna bet that when the woman shows up, it WILL ACTUALLY BE OPRAH. Just 'cause you get all the cool stuff happening at work. And yes, presentation is VERY important. You’re supposed to be trying to distinguish yourself from everyone else. And in a _good_ way, not in a “let me bore them to sleep” way. ---
**Author:** ![skeptic\_ev](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@skeptic\_ev](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skeptic_ev)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-does-presentation-count-for-anything-anymore/188415/8 "2003-07-15T00:18:44Z")
**auntie em** : sister. Last time I checked, anyway. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-does-presentation-count-for-anything-anymore/188415/9 "2003-07-15T00:21:42Z")
Just a quick hijack, folks: **skeptic\_ev** , we are having a Dopefest in the Plaza on July 27th at noon o’clock. We won’t demand that you bring a cover letter to the fest, but if you don’t mind, please attend with references on-hand. Just in case we ask for them. 🙂 The Kansas City Dopefest thread can be found [here.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=187465) ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-does-presentation-count-for-anything-anymore/188415/10 "2003-07-15T00:22:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by skeptic\_ev \* > \*\ ***auntie em** : sister. Last time I checked, anyway. 😃 \*\* Oh, and **auntie em** will be there, too, if you want to chat away about comparative gender identities. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![lovelyluka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f475e1/32.png) [@lovelyluka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lovelyluka)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-does-presentation-count-for-anything-anymore/188415/11 "2003-07-15T00:40:31Z")
I have nothing of value to contribute…I just wanted to thank **auntie em** for creating a thread that somehow, some way, motivated me to stop procrastinating and work on my CV! Oh, and to tell **scout1222** that I rarely laugh out loud while reading this thread, but I did when I read that post. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by scout1222 \* > \*\*You know, just because it’s you, **auntie em** , I’m gonna bet that when the woman shows up, it WILL ACTUALLY BE OPRAH. > > Just 'cause you get all the cool stuff happening at work. > \*\* BWAHAHAHAHA! ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-does-presentation-count-for-anything-anymore/188415/12 "2003-07-15T01:28:48Z")
I can’t imagine someone writing a cover letter you describe being a particularly good employee, resume or not. Does you boss really want to work with someone who’s something of a nutcake? If she writing something this inappropriate, do you really think she’ll know the appropriate way to behave with customers or other employees? As far as what to do if she calls and asks why she wasn’t interviewed, you don’t owe her any explanation. Just tell her you decided not to ask her in and if she pushes, tell her you can’t discuss personnel issues with outsiders. ---
**Author:** ![sirtonyh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ad7895/32.png) [@sirtonyh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sirtonyh)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-does-presentation-count-for-anything-anymore/188415/13 "2003-07-15T07:28:04Z")
I can’t imagine even taking the time to read a 5 page cover letter, much less care whether it was well written or not. I (and many other people at the company I used to work for) used to have read 20 or 30 resumes a day so we would very, very rarely got past the first page. I paid very little attention to what school the applicant had gone to 'cause I have no idea if the University of Texas is better than the University of Alabama. A degree is a degree as far as I’m concerned. I’m not overly concerned with what they were doing 10 years ago so I never read that part either. If they had the required experience, we would bring them in for an interview. The better the candidate, the more people interviewed them and if we all agreed we would hire them. ---
**Author:** ![YoudNeverGuess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a587f6/32.png) [@YoudNeverGuess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoudNeverGuess)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-does-presentation-count-for-anything-anymore/188415/14 "2003-07-15T12:29:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kalhoun \* > \*\*No. It’s a waste of everyone’s time. Maybe she just took some bad “cover letter advice” and might turn out to be the gal for the gig. But since your boss already made up his mind, he should cancel her interview. I’ve gone on interviews that were decided before the fact. It’s fucking depressing, especially if you’re really interested in the position. \*\* I agree **Kalhoun**. There aren’t many things more annoying than wasting time or even taking a day’s leave going to an interview when you don’t get the job. You get your hopes up for nothing and end up with 1 day/ a half day less leave on top of feeling blue. I disagree with **sirtonyh** in that I think it’s important to have a look at what people were doing ten years ago/ their hobbies as often it can give you an insight into what kind of person they are e.g. do they seem sociable/affable, interesting, energetic, creative… I know I’ve looked at CVs and made negative mental notes about people based on whether they seem to have any life outside work or not and also whether they seem to be a well-rounded person i.e. one who is not just interested in one subject (a nerd). ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-does-presentation-count-for-anything-anymore/188415/15 "2003-07-15T13:12:10Z")
I’ll agree with others in saying that not interviewing this woman would be the ideal goal; however, because of the very real possibility of a lawsuit based on gender discrimination (“I know I was qualified for the position, so the only reason _I_ can think of not hiring me is because I’m a woman, damnit!”), I think **auntie em** ’s boss is playing it safe–and wisely, too. Yes, it’s true that with the number of women who have worked with him in the past, this woman’s accusation of gender discrimination won’t hold up in court, but who wants to spend any part of the office’s budget in court in the first place? Especially a non-profit office whose budget is small with which to begin. Yes, essentially, this is a waste of time for at least one person involved, but for **auntie em** ’s boss (and if I’m correct and this is a concern of his), it’s a smart move. ---
**Author:** ![auntie\_em](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@auntie\_em](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/auntie_em)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-does-presentation-count-for-anything-anymore/188415/16 "2003-07-15T13:12:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sirtonyh \* > \*\*I can’t imagine even taking the time to read a 5 page cover letter, much less care whether it was well written or not. > \*\* Just to clarify: The cover letter _itself_ was not 5 pages long–the cover letter and resume _combined_ were 5 pages long. The cover letter was only two. But still–weirdest thing I’ve ever seen. We did find the dates of employment finally, though–turns out they were hidden within the (long, overly verbose, and excessively adjectival) paragraphs describing each of her previous jobs. I just think it’s Murphy’s Law that she’ll get hired and end up being my New Best Friend. Then one day she’ll somehow dig up this thread on the SDMB, and we’ll start Kung Fu Fighting. ---
**Author:** ![auntie\_em](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@auntie\_em](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/auntie_em)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-does-presentation-count-for-anything-anymore/188415/17 "2003-07-15T13:14:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SkipMagic \* > \*\*I’ll agree with others in saying that not interviewing this woman would be the ideal goal; however, because of the very real possibility of a lawsuit based on gender discrimination (“I know I was qualified for the position, so the only reason _I_ can think of not hiring me is because I’m a woman, damnit!”), I think **auntie em** ’s boss is playing it safe–and wisely, too. > \*\* But can’t we just then say, “No, it’s not because you’re a woman–it’s because you’re an Oprahpostle”? ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-does-presentation-count-for-anything-anymore/188415/18 "2003-07-15T13:33:45Z")
Depends on whether you’re a Dr.Philite. Some Oprahpostles might consider a devotion to the bald dispenser of silly colloquialisms a form of blasphemous apostasy, so a possible religious discrimnation suit might arise. I think you’re screwed either way. ---
**Author:** ![kputt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f475e1/32.png) [@kputt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kputt)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-does-presentation-count-for-anything-anymore/188415/19 "2003-07-15T13:39:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DeVena \* > \*\*This might come as a shock to you. You might want to sit down. > > Your boss, my dear sweet **auntie em** , is an idiot. > > How’s your resume? Do you need to update it again, listing that you have experience working with the mentally challanged (not to mention missing) cow-orker. Add supervisor to that list. > > It’s like teaching a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig. (The Oprah-apostle being the pig.) \*\* Most bosses don’t like 5 pages of a resume. They have to receive hundreds, if not thousands of these things and they don’t want to waste their time trying to read a 5 page resume. If this woman was mentally challenged, she should have gotten help writing up her resume. ---
**Author:** ![auntie\_em](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@auntie\_em](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/auntie_em)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-does-presentation-count-for-anything-anymore/188415/20 "2003-07-15T13:48:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SkipMagic \* > \*\*Depends on whether you’re a Dr.Philite. Some Oprahpostles might consider a devotion to the bald dispenser of silly colloquialisms a form of blasphemous apostasy, so a possible religious discrimnation suit might arise. > \*\* I believe you mean Dr. Phil_istines_, and no, we’re pretty much athiests around here, given those two options. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-does-presentation-count-for-anything-anymore/188415.md?page=2)