# "So Help Me, God" I Can't Join the Army? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 15, 2003, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-help-me-god-i-cant-join-the-army/168874 "2003-04-15T14:15:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-help-me-god-i-cant-join-the-army/168874/1 "2003-04-15T14:15:59Z")
Not that Uncle Sam would Want Me, anyway . . . But I was watching the news last night, a story about aliens being sworn into the US armed forces (like, aliens from the Philippines and Russia, not from Mars), and they included a scene of the Swearer and the Swearees repeating, " . . . so help me, God." _Whaaa?_ What would an atheist do? If I went up to them beforehand and said, “Sir, it would be dishonest of me to swear to a god when I’m an atheist,” I’d be marked down as a troublemaker from Day One. I had no idea recruits were required to swear to God! Can any military-types here help me out? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-help-me-god-i-cant-join-the-army/168874/2 "2003-04-15T14:23:42Z")
This used to be std in coutrooms, too. You can opt out there, and I’m sure you could opt out in the military, too. I’d guess there are many other groups before atheists who might be targeted for “hazing” in the military. Sorry I don’t have any facts for you, mostly my opinion. I’ve been around the military for quite a bit of my life, and from what I’ve seen, your atheism would not be a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-help-me-god-i-cant-join-the-army/168874/3 "2003-04-15T14:29:50Z")
Wow. A thread from Eve, complaining about the use of the word ‘God.’ I’m shocked, shocked, to discover gambling is going on here! Not to worry, Eve. You face the same dilemma as a witness in court, who also must swear an oath to God to tell the truth – unless they don’t want to. In that case, you may affirm that you undertake the obligation freely, rather than swearing, and, as Cecil puts it, you are permitted to answer “You got it, Jack,” or whatever godless heathens say, instead of “So help me, God.” [Cecil’s column](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_145.html) on oaths for the atheists amongst us. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-help-me-god-i-cant-join-the-army/168874/4 "2003-04-15T14:37:57Z")
Well, the folks I saw were being sworn in en masse, which means I’d either have to go up to the Swearer beforehand and ask for a _totally separate_ swearing-in, or I’d have to just keep my mouth shut during the actual swearing-in and either not _be_ sworn in, or . . . I dunno. It just seems that atheists are pretty much forced to either lie, or to single themselves out as troublemakers. This is the first I’d heard that a religious oath was used to join the U.S. armed forces! Naive little me. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-help-me-god-i-cant-join-the-army/168874/5 "2003-04-15T14:48:44Z")
When I went through basic training (Orlando Naval Training Center, 1984) we used to have to line up in front our racks every night and someone would lead a prayer. There wasn’t really any choice about it (at least we sure weren’t _told_ that we had any choice about it). We had an ordained minister in our company who usually led the prayer and he always ened every prayer with “…we ask this in Jesus’ name…” I know we had Jewish recruits in the company (as well as some atheists) but there was never any sense that their opinions or objections would matter much, or even be listened to. We also went to chapel every sunday. We had a choice of mainstream services we could attend, and we _were_ told, in this case that we didn’t _have_ to go, but, in the words of my caring and sensitive Company Commander, “…any of you little heathens that _don’t_ wanna go to church are gonna work yer fuckin’ asses off back here in the barracks.” Needless to say, most people went to chapel because they didn’t want to clean the heads and swab the decks all morning. I was 18 years old at the time and only vaguely aware of my rights. I certainly didn’t have the balls to object to any of this. My CC did not exactly seem, shall we say, “receptive” to those kinds of concerns. I don’t know how they got away with that stuff (I guess it _was_ the Reagan era). Is basic Training still like that? Does anybody know? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-help-me-god-i-cant-join-the-army/168874/6 "2003-04-15T15:07:40Z")
I’m reminded of _Oh, God_, where God gets sworn in, and says “So help me, Me.” ---
**Author:** ![Mort\_Furd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Mort\_Furd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mort_Furd)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-help-me-god-i-cant-join-the-army/168874/7 "2003-04-15T15:09:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > We also went to chapel every sunday. We had a choice of mainstream services we could attend, and we _were_ told, in this case that we didn’t _have_ to go, but, in the words of my caring and sensitive Company Commander, “…any of you little heathens that _don’t_ wanna go to church are gonna work yer fuckin’ asses off back here in the barracks.” > Needless to say, most people went to chapel because they didn’t want to clean the heads and swab the decks all morning. In Basic Training in the Air Force back in 1987, we had pretty much the same choice. I always chose to stay in the barracks. Nobody else wanted to, so I always ended up doing “Dorm Guard” while everybody else was attending “church” services (mostly some singing and a very vague sermon - I went once.) It was the only time I got to spend alone the whole time, and I’ve always been a solitary kind of person. ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-help-me-god-i-cant-join-the-army/168874/8 "2003-04-15T15:36:12Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t know how they got away with that stuff (I guess it was the Reagan era). Is basic Training still like that? Does anybody know? \*\*Basic Training Ft. Jackson SC ‘86’ \*\*(last to go through the Old Tank Hill if any one cares). Pretty much the way I remember it too. It depended on my mood on whether I went or not. Cleaning the barracks wasn’t too hard. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-help-me-god-i-cant-join-the-army/168874/9 "2003-04-15T15:38:38Z")
As a Christian, I oppose oaths upon God, since they are explicitly forbidden by Scripture. So it’s not just atheists who would be uncomfortable with “so help me, God”. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-help-me-god-i-cant-join-the-army/168874/10 "2003-04-15T15:42:27Z")
Has anyone challenged the oath on Constitutional grounds, or would that be considered _de trop_ in the armed forces? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-help-me-god-i-cant-join-the-army/168874/11 "2003-04-15T16:13:34Z")
Eve: This is an interesting question. Did you do an web surfing to see if there are precidents? I can’t believe that in this has not come up in real life yet. We’ve got 2nd graders complaining about “under God” in the pledge, so there must’ve been some military type who rocked the boat a little. I know the reference to 2nd graders isn’t strictly true (it was her Dad who did the complaining), but I had to exagerate a bit to make my point. ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-help-me-god-i-cant-join-the-army/168874/12 "2003-04-15T17:41:56Z")
When I was sworn in (1982) I simply omitted the phrase “under God”. No muss, no fuss. I never encountered the “bedtime prayer” during basic, but I did get the “go to church or get a work detail” speech. Being of sound mind and lazy disposition I reasoned that attending a service under coersive circumstances was not disrespectful so long as the chaplain was aware of the circumstances. I asked him; he acknowledged that he knew many recruits were only there because of pressure from the DI’s, so I went to church every Sunday and sat quietly in a back pew. I did not, however, kneel or make any other attempt to mimick the behaviors of people who were actually there to worship. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-help-me-god-i-cant-join-the-army/168874/13 "2003-04-15T19:04:32Z")
Evening prayer was standard routine on my ship. It was nonsectarian, and offended nobody that I knew about. This was in 1998 - pretty recent. Our company commander in boot camp made it a requirement to attend chapel on Sundays. He told those who weren’t religious to choose a service, go, sit quietly and learn about the faiths that their fellow sailors have. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-help-me-god-i-cant-join-the-army/168874/14 "2003-04-15T19:15:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*As a Christian, I oppose oaths upon God, since they are explicitly forbidden by Scripture. > > So it’s not just atheists who would be uncomfortable with “so help me, God”. \*\* I don’t follow how that is an oath upon God. ---
**Author:** ![Crown\_Prince\_of\_Irony](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ed655f/32.png) [@Crown\_Prince\_of\_Irony](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crown_Prince_of_Irony)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-help-me-god-i-cant-join-the-army/168874/15 "2003-04-15T19:22:50Z")
Regarding the “work or worship” practice in Basic Training: at Great Lakes RTC in '92 they did the same thing. I stayed back most of the time, partly because I’m agnostic, and partly for the same reason as **Mort Furd** - it’s the only chance to have any quiet time in basic, unless you stand a night watch, which sucks. I’d always do a rush job on cleaning, go into the Forward Supply Locker - aka broom closet (to which I had the keys, being the Forward Supply Locker Recruit Petty Officer) - open up a can of Nevr Dull brass polish, and let the fumes carry me off to a happy place for an hour or so.😉 Regarding the oath, they let you leave out the God part if you want. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-help-me-god-i-cant-join-the-army/168874/16 "2003-04-15T19:26:58Z")
Another reason I wouldn’t last five minutes in the Army—I’m lazy, undisciplined, _and_ an atheist! I did find [The Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers](http://www.maaf.info/faq.html), but it doesn’t seem there is any real movement to get things changed, or even make much of a fuss about it. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-help-me-god-i-cant-join-the-army/168874/17 "2003-04-15T19:28:20Z")
I’ve been an atheist since I was in seventh grade and went through Orlando as well in August of 1994. I do not recall anything particularly anti-atheist or pro-theist or what-have-you. But then again, I’ve never really minded swearing to god in the first place. I feel the sense of the statement does not rely on the existence of an eternal being. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-help-me-god-i-cant-join-the-army/168874/18 "2003-04-15T20:51:59Z")
—so there must’ve been some military type who rocked the boat a little.— Yeah, they’re real big on Buck Privates “rocking the boat” in the military. But yeah, “Shut up, don’t be different, and respect us” is a great way to teach respect. Stephen L. Carter notes that he never knew how the Jewish kids felt when schools led Christian prayers. He later learned that many of them basically saw it as a lesson instructive lesson in what Jews have to face in life. As a Christian, he was horrified that his religion would be something that other people would have to forbear, instead of coming to freely. But apparently that sort of sentiment is lost upon the military. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-help-me-god-i-cant-join-the-army/168874/19 "2003-04-15T22:20:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > **Needless to say, most people went to chapel because they didn’t want to clean the heads and swab the decks all morning.** A friend of mine was in the U.S. Navy for 6 years during the 1980s, and reports pretty much exactly what you’re saying. He also said that you were not allowed to put “Atheist” on your dog tags where they indicate what your religion is. (You could put “Satanist,” but not “Atheist.”) The closest thing to Atheist that they allowed you to put on your dog tags was “No religious preference”, which ain’t exactly the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-help-me-god-i-cant-join-the-army/168874/20 "2003-04-15T22:45:37Z")
I would just like to point out that if you were in fact in the military, and found your self in a firefight, especially one in which you were not in a very advantageous position, you would cease to be an atheist. G’head…tell me I am wrong. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-help-me-god-i-cant-join-the-army/168874.md?page=2)