# "So Help Me, God" I Can't Join the Army? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 15, 2003, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-help-me-god-i-cant-join-the-army/168874 "2003-04-15T14:15:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![il\_Topo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/eb9ed0/32.png) [@il\_Topo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/il_Topo)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-help-me-god-i-cant-join-the-army/168874/41 "2003-04-16T16:45:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*Yes, when in an “oath” situation, I have made it plain from the beginning that I would not swear upon God, a Bible, or any other thing as it was prohibited by that selfsame Bible. \*\* Do you have a cite for the passage that prohibits swearing an oath on God? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-help-me-god-i-cant-join-the-army/168874/42 "2003-04-16T18:59:11Z")
Hi, **il Topo** - > [@](#): > > Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths that you have made to the Lord’. But I say to you, do not swear at all…Simply let your Yes be Yes and your No be No, for anything beyond that comes from the evil one. - Matthew 5:33-37. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![il\_Topo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/eb9ed0/32.png) [@il\_Topo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/il_Topo)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-help-me-god-i-cant-join-the-army/168874/43 "2003-04-16T20:43:27Z")
Cool! Thanks, Shodan. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-help-me-god-i-cant-join-the-army/168874/44 "2003-04-16T21:03:45Z")
Affirming instead of swearing doesn’t kick up any fuss at all. After all, I’m a member of one particular religion and every time I re-enlisted, I affirmed. No problems & no change in the legality of the contract. ---
**Author:** ![Shaolinrabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Shaolinrabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shaolinrabbit)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-help-me-god-i-cant-join-the-army/168874/45 "2003-04-16T21:29:06Z")
**Monty** , this is a slight hijack, but since you’re here, did they have LDS services available? I don’t remember. Thanks! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![il\_Topo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/eb9ed0/32.png) [@il\_Topo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/il_Topo)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-help-me-god-i-cant-join-the-army/168874/46 "2003-04-16T21:37:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eve \* > \*\*But I was watching the news last night, a story about aliens being sworn into the US armed forces (like, aliens from the Philippines and Russia, not from Mars), and they included a scene of the Swearer and the Swearees repeating, " . . . so help me, God." > > _Whaaa?_ > > What would an atheist do?\*\* You can’t be the president either, I guess. What’s that you say? “…so help me God” isn’t a part of the oath specifically laid out in the Constitution to “swear” in the president, and everyone just editorializes by adding it anyway? Imagine that. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-help-me-god-i-cant-join-the-army/168874/47 "2003-04-16T21:45:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*Because it explicitly calls upon God to “empower” the oath. It is swearing by God. This is prohibited by Scripture. Whosoever does it does so in violation of Christ’s command. > > Of course, if Christ’s sommands mean nothing to you, then that won’t be a big deal. > > Yes, when in an “oath” situation, I have made it plain from the beginning that I would not swear upon God, a Bible, or any other thing as it was prohibited by that selfsame Bible. \*\* Okay, I see. I was reading the post and the oath differently that what you meant. See, I see “so help me God” swearing by God, but not on God. Then again, my idea of the difference of by versus on comes really from Tolkien. (I’m not really a swearing kind of guy.) ---
**Author:** ![Cerri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3bc359/32.png) [@Cerri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerri)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-help-me-god-i-cant-join-the-army/168874/48 "2003-04-16T22:52:47Z")
> [@](#): > > Yes, it is nearly as charming as how Native Americans were put in schools to quietly learn how to be white (unfortunately, white kids for some reason were at that time never asked to sit quietly to learn about Native American culture, much less to take on that culture). > > In other words, it IS great to learn about the observances of others. But in this case, it sounds like just an ad hoc and condescending way to brush off problems raised by the fact that the system was never designed to tolerate difference. **Apos** I don’t see how you can even remotely compare the assimilation and genocide of an entire culture 1-200 years ago, with being required to attend a service under the premise of learning something about another religion in the military (since the person in question was an Atheist). And to be honest, I think that’s a pretty darn big insult to the Native American community. Regardless of how the system may or may not be designed to tolerate religious difference, comparing the two is senseless. The military, in this case, wasn’t forcing ANYONE to _become_ any religion, unlike the Native American children. And FTR, in my opinion, if we were taught at least a basic course in comparative theology in school (and I am NOT particularly religious, mind you), I think it would go a long way in teaching tolerance of other people’s religions. (for instance, having the basics of the Koran taught in a segment of the fictional class I speak of, would go a long way in dispelling some of the ignorance alot of our country seems to have about Muslims). ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-help-me-god-i-cant-join-the-army/168874/49 "2003-04-16T23:41:47Z")
**Cerri** , the problem with mandating chapel attendence is that it’s discriminatory. It singles out one group and requires them to attend service they _don’t believe in._ The same requirement was not made for theists. In order to be fair about the stated premise of requiring recruits to “learn about other religions,” (which, btw, has nothing to do with a CC’s duties during Basic Training) the CC would have had to order _everyone_, theist and atheist alike, to attend a service which did not reflect their personal views. Imagine if Christian recruits were ordered to attend a Satanic service. would anyone agree that that was OK. Oh, and to continue to make the requirement fair, each recruit would have to do this every week. Theists could never be allowed to attend a service they agreed with, because the atheists are never allowed to attend a service they agree with. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-help-me-god-i-cant-join-the-army/168874/50 "2003-04-16T23:47:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by stofsky \* > \*\*But they forgot the one for Scientology: $ \*\* I thought that was the emblem for Atlas Shruggedism. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2003, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-help-me-god-i-cant-join-the-army/168874/51 "2003-04-17T01:22:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Copaesthetic \* > **Monty** , this is a slight hijack, but since you’re here, did they have LDS services available? I don’t remember. > > Thanks! 🙂 You’re welcome. The LDS Church has had services available for every base & ship I’ve served on/aboard or within a reasonable distance from the base. There were also Wiccan service available on both ships, held Saturday evenings. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2003, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-help-me-god-i-cant-join-the-army/168874/52 "2003-04-17T04:47:57Z")
Just a clarification, in case anyone needs it: The Wiccan services were sponsored, conducted, etc. by the Wiccans; NOT the LDS! ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2003, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-help-me-god-i-cant-join-the-army/168874/53 "2003-04-17T04:49:42Z")
> [@](#): > > And to be honest, I think that’s a pretty darn big insult to the Native American community. I disagree. I didn’t try to compare the magnitude of the crime, but rather the hypocrisy of the attitude: it’s as if the justifcation for teaching Native Americans to be white was “It’s important to learn about other cultures!” And yeah, it is. But that’s not what going on: not some cordial exchange of mutual understanding. Instead it’s “well, you don’t fit into our system, so just sit quietly and try not to get in our way.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-help-me-god-i-cant-join-the-army/168874.md?page=2)