# So... how are men supposed to look for "business casual" shirts? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Tags:** fashion-clothing\ **Created:** [June 10, 2025, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-are-men-supposed-to-look-for-business-casual-shirts/1019430 "2025-06-10T16:11:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 1\ **Showing post:** 85
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2025, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-are-men-supposed-to-look-for-business-casual-shirts/1019430/85 "2025-06-15T16:25:04Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Really? I could only find studies like this [one](https://www.anthropol.ac.cn/EN/10.16359/j.1000-3193/AAS.2021.0059). Huh! Okay, well, that would explain things, then. Maybe I had just bad sources. Thanks for the link! > [@ZipperJJ](#): > > did you get a chance to check out any of Tan France’s stuff? I missed that the first time; thanks for the reminder! Just watched the clip 🙂 I really like what he did with Michael: [![](https://fightingignorance.org/a59ca1b0-065e-4d5b-bd45-8a62b5bbfbe5-1-30-second-makeovers-with-tan-france-cosmopolitan-youtube-june-15-08-13-48-am.jpg) ](https://fightingignorance.org/a59ca1b0-065e-4d5b-bd45-8a62b5bbfbe5-1-30-second-makeovers-with-tan-france-cosmopolitan-youtube-june-15-08-13-48-am.jpg) Just a simple tweak to the shoulders (as you pointed out), belt, and pants made a noticeable difference! That’s exactly the kind of thing I was struggling to understand. On the other hand, with this 26-year-old guy (Brian), I thought he looked much better _before_ the makeover: [![](https://fightingignorance.org/76bb1c43-f3d5-47aa-b8a9-5f8a2ec8d8df-1-30-second-makeovers-with-tan-france-cosmopolitan-youtube-june-15-08-14-40-am.jpg) ](https://fightingignorance.org/76bb1c43-f3d5-47aa-b8a9-5f8a2ec8d8df-1-30-second-makeovers-with-tan-france-cosmopolitan-youtube-june-15-08-14-40-am.jpg) I can’t really verbalize why, though… I mean, granted, some part of this stuff will always just be subjective and cultural. > [@robby](#): > > surely you’re aware of a “tuxedo”? (Technically speaking, the term tuxedo only refers to the dinner jacket portion of what is more properly referred to as “Black Tie.”) I didn’t actually realize there was a meaningful difference. I thought a tuxedo was just a suit with those bird tails, worn by butlers and such. > [@robby](#): > > But beyond that, I learned from my service as an officer in the U.S. Navy. Ah, that explains it. Those dress uniforms do look great! Great recruiting tool, too, I bet 🙂 > [@msmith537](#): > > It’s weird that you would seem to take pride in presenting yourself as a slob and a jerk in a professional environment. Don’t underestimate how people perceive you. Wait, what? How did we get from here to there…? 🤔 Maybe I misrepresented something. I don’t think I’m either a slob or a jerk at work (or anywhere else, I hope!). I just don’t dress fancy. I work with programmers, who are not generally known for being particularly fashion-conscious.. When I go to the office, I already show up to work better dressed than most of them (including some of my bosses), but just in a fun way (as in patterned button-ups), not in a “I’m classier than you” way. Maybe it’s a cultural thing too. Growing in East Asia, it was more a “nail that sticks out gets the hammer” kind of culture than a “squeaky wheel gets the grease” one. To this day, even after 20 years in the States, it is still hard for me to purposely draw attention to myself, even positively. It is therefore hard for me to dis-associate “fancy clothes” with “self-aggrandizing”. Being potentially seen as arrogant is therefore much more horrifying to me than being invisible. So… comfortable is good. Fun is fine. A casual “I like your shirt!” is great (which I actually get quite frequently), but “Wow, who’s that impressively dressed gentleman” would be absolutely _horrifying_ to me. What I ultimately want is _well-fitting_, not _luxurious_. > [@msmith537](#): > > Having a mentality of “fuck you clothes don’t matter” is childish and unprofessional. You are in a work environment so your choice of clothing should confirm to the culture of your company, your clients, and your own personal sense of style. Well, first of all, I was saying that’s the attitude I had twenty years ago, not today 🙂 But also, in my particular industry and in my roles… clothes really are a secondary (or tertiary) consideration! If anything, there is more a danger of over-dressing than under-dressing. As in, I need to stay approachable and relatable in order to do my job well. Working with other programmers, especially those who are much younger than myself, requires a high degree of candor, trust, and, sometimes, commiserating against what they see as the “the suits” (management, marketing, owners, lawyers, etc.). If they start to see me as higher up than them, it impacts my ability to work effectively with them and resolve problems both in code and in relationships. I am not their superior (and don’t want to be), so there is a practical upper limit to how “well” I can dress before it really does start to impact my relationship with them, and not in a good way. I cannot be seen as a “suit”. But yes, your advice is generally understood (and well-intentioned!)… it’s just a bit nuanced in this situation 🙂 > [@msmith537](#): > > You don’t need to “make a statement” but it should be intentional. It absolutely _is_ intentional 🙂 I just want better-fitting shirts similar to the kind I already wear. I’d get & wear more of them if I could better understand the fitting techniques. But that doesn’t mean I want to totally change who I am or try to completely upscale my wardrobe or pretend to be somebody else entirely, that’s all! Hmmm… you know… something about this sounded _sooo_ familiar to me. It took me a second to figure out why… 13 years ago (!), you and I actually had a similar convo, lol! From that [really, really old thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/almost-30-never-had-a-relationship-any-advice/638807/): > [@Almost 30, never had a relationship. Any advice?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/almost-30-never-had-a-relationship-any-advice/638807/51): > > You describe yourself as an "ordinary, “uninteresting”, “not particularly attractive guy” making $20,000 a year who wants to live in a dirt hut and has a bunch of pictures of yourself on OkCupid digging ditches and doing the same dumb yoga pose in every shot. What part of that do you think a woman is going to be into? Well, that thread actually really did help — a _lot_. I took a lot of that advice, but not all of it (still have never worn a “peacoat” and never will), and managed to find a balance that both improved the things I wanted to improve, and kept the parts of me I wanted to keep. A decade and several relationships later, guess what, lol… I did eventually find the lady of my dreams (coming up on 5 years now), and now we’re two silly, ordinary, working-class people who dig ditches together on the weekends, though the yoga has largely given way to more mountain biking and hiking and such 🙂 (hence the trailwork and ditches). Point is… I want my clothes to represent who I am, not the other way around. > [@msmith537](#): > > Be better than The Gap. This… was fantastic, lol. I laughed so much at that clip. We ended up watching the whole movie that night (which neither of us had ever heard of, somehow). Thanks for the chuckle! PS Ryan Gosling does look great in that suit. But he’d also look good in anything… or nothing at all. Steve Carell, on the other hand… I _much_ preferred the fun-dad version of him (the one who got cheated on) than the very strangely dolled-up, post-transformation version of him. Did people ever really dress like that, even in the 2010s? It looks absurd: [![](https://fightingignorance.org/c7416da0-02b9-489e-bf6c-12987da2f2f0-steve-carell-crazy-stupid-love-google-search-june-15-09-06-42-am.jpg) ](https://fightingignorance.org/c7416da0-02b9-489e-bf6c-12987da2f2f0-steve-carell-crazy-stupid-love-google-search-june-15-09-06-42-am.jpg) > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > And as I was shopping for that suit and dress shirts, I was surprised at how few there were both at Macy’s and even Nordstrom (which had some, but a much smaller selection than I remember). That was my experience too, when I went shopping there for a wedding shirt (for someone else’s wedding). They were able to measure me but there was only a tiny handful of shirts (like maybe 3 or 4) that would fit my size and needs, at least at my budget. I remember, shopping with older adults when I was a teenager, it used to be aisles and aisles of the stuff. Now Macy’s is nearly dead (at least around here) and comfier, simpler clothes are the norm. Anything with buttons is already relatively rare, both where I work and where I live (rural Oregon and California). > [@Dinsdale](#): > > I am perfectly fine with L or XL and R or T (depending on the brand.) I mean, that’d be nice! Once I get some measurements, ideally I could just find clothes that fit them right off the rack. I can’t really afford to get them tailored. > [@Dinsdale](#): > > I’ve never heard of the brand the OP says he likes (and haven’t looked then up), but if he like how that brand fits, I wonder why he wishes to change. Unless they only offer super casual wear… [Uniqlo](https://www.uniqlo.com/us/en/men) is great, but they are a niche Japanese brand that’s not easy to find stateside. Notably, I cannot try any of them on locally and returns are a hassle. But the few shirts I have from them are quite wonderful. It’d just be nice to have access to a broader selection of styles and brands. I’d like a “fit” (i.e., a set of measurements) that I can take with me and re-use across clothing retailers anywhere. Patagonia and REI, for example, contribute some part of sales to environmental efforts (which I appreciate), and both have the fun outdoorsy patterns and textiles that I prefer. But fitting their clothes is a very difficult for me, both online and in-store. And now I better understand why. Or if I happen to run across a shirt when I go through Costco, it’d just be nice to have some objective way to measure it ahead of time (they have no fitting rooms) to know if it’d fit me. Standing in line to return the ill-fitting ones (which is well over 70% of them) is a tedious and annoying process. And also heartbreaking when I really loved the design 🙂 > [@msmith537](#): > > Ryan Gosling’s character is meant to be obnoxious in that scene (from Crazy, Stupid, Love). For the record, we really enjoyed that movie. It’s probably one of my favorites now, actually. I loved Ryan Gosling & Emma Stone in La-La Land. Steve Carrel is one of my partner’s favorite actors. I don’t know how neither of us have ever heard of this movie! > [@msmith537](#): > > I know @Reply is probably trying to be self-deprecating, but why put it out there that your “very personality would probably cost us clients”? Lol, truthfully, because it _would_! There is a huge chasm between what I do (coding stuff) and, say, enterprise sales. Put our salesman in front of the people I work with and they’d be like “dude, spare me the sales pitch and get me a developer”. Conversely, put _me_ in front of another company’s executives and they’d be like who the hell are you, get me somebody who actually knows business. Different roles, different personalities, different clothes and all that. I’m not a banker or a lawyer; I’m just some guy who codes for a living and gives guided nature tours in leaf-patterned shirts from time to time. What works great in those contexts will not work so well in others, that’s all. I would not last long in more formal settings — not that I’d ever want to join them, to begin with. Emphasis on the _casual_ part of business casual 🙂 > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > What’s different here for him is the European connection. In my limited experience, Europeans tend to have more formal dress standards than North Americans, so it doesn’t hurt to dress up a bit for the first encounters, until he have a good feel for what the culture is in this situation. Yeah, that’s a bit of unknown variable here. Hence me wanting to dress up a little more than usual… but still not too much. The Brogrammer Dress Code™ knows no national borders 😉 Seriously, though, it’ll be fine. We’re all just excited to meet each other after years of working from home. --- _[View the full topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-are-men-supposed-to-look-for-business-casual-shirts/1019430)._