# So how did westerners come up with "Hari-Kari"?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-did-westerners-come-up-with-hari-kari/173077
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [May 4, 2003, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-did-westerners-come-up-with-hari-kari/173077 "2003-05-04T21:49:29Z")
**Posts on this page:** 13
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)
#### Post date: [May 4, 2003, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-did-westerners-come-up-with-hari-kari/173077/1 "2003-05-04T21:49:29Z")
OK, I know that a lot of words that westerners take from other languages, especially in the past, end up being seriously bastardized version in the western language. Only more recently have some of these words started to more closely resemble their original counterparts.
However, where the heck did western (or at least American) languages come up with "Hari-Kari"to denote suicide in Japanese? There are a several words in Japanese to denote suircide under varying cirucmstances (from _seppuku_ on down). Yet none of them seem to have any resemblance to “Hari-Kari”.
So where did that phrase come from?
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### Author:  [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)
#### Post date: [May 4, 2003, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-did-westerners-come-up-with-hari-kari/173077/2 "2003-05-04T22:04:31Z")
According to Merriam-Webster:
Main Entry: **hara-kiri**
Pronunciation: [FONT=courier new]"har-i-'kir-E, -'kar-E
Function: _noun_
Etymology: Japanese _harakiri_, from _hara_ belly + _kiri_ cutting
Date: 1840
**1 :** ritual suicide by disembowelment practiced by the Japanese samurai or formerly decreed by a court in lieu of the death penalty
**2 :** SUICIDE 1b[/FONT]
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### Author:  [@Tradnor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tradnor)
#### Post date: [May 5, 2003, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-did-westerners-come-up-with-hari-kari/173077/3 "2003-05-05T02:09:05Z")
Exactly. In Japanese, _harakiri_ and _seppuku_ are written with the same two kanji characters, in opposite orders (although _seppuku_ is used far more often).
Harikari is a bastardized spelling based on the bastardized English pronunciation, like karioke and habachi.
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### Author:  [@psiekier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psiekier)
#### Post date: [May 7, 2003, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-did-westerners-come-up-with-hari-kari/173077/4 "2003-05-07T12:41:35Z")
“Harakiri” reminds me of [Home English Home](http://www.americakokki.com/english/english.html). They explain the whole thing in Lesson 1.
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### Author:  [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)
#### Post date: [May 7, 2003, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-did-westerners-come-up-with-hari-kari/173077/5 "2003-05-07T12:59:30Z")
**psiekier** : That was _hilarious!_ (Interestingly, as I typed that last sentence, I typed _ **kil** _arious.)
> [@](#):
>
> According to Merriam-Webster:
>
> Main Entry: \*\*hara-kiri \*\*
> Pronunciation: "har-i-'kir-E, -'kar-E
I’ve always thought, as can be heard on **psiekier** ’s link, that it was pronounced “ha-ra-kee-ree”.
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### Author:  [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)
#### Post date: [May 7, 2003, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-did-westerners-come-up-with-hari-kari/173077/6 "2003-05-07T13:35:34Z")
I was surprised to learn, many years ago, that the proper pronunciation was “hara-kiri” = “belly cutting”. I had always heard (and seen written) “Hari Kari”.
I assumed that the most likely reason was a Western tendency to reshape words into convenient and more familiar forms, mixed with a tendency to rhyme. We have lots of word combos like “Helter Skelter”, “Pell Mell”, “Hurly Burly”, etc. “Hari Kari” would fit right in.
I’ve neve encountered the word in any use prior to WWII, so I’ve always assumed that GIs brought this home. Is it possible that Chicago Sox announcer Harry Carey’s name had anything to do with it?
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [May 7, 2003, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-did-westerners-come-up-with-hari-kari/173077/7 "2003-05-07T13:54:59Z")
If it’s any consolation, the Japanese mutilate the pronunciation of English words they borrow, too (eg, Hotel becomes “ho-tay-ru”). Although they seem to be following a more logical method of adapting English words to the somewhat different Japanese sound system. There’s nothing that odd about pronouncing Hara Kiri correctly in English, other than anglicizing the “r” sound. Same with Karaoke.
I guess “Harry Karry” rhymes and sounds a bit “funny”, so maybe it’s a way of taking a backhanded swipe at the Japanese, who were our enemies in WWII.
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### Author:  [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)
#### Post date: [May 7, 2003, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-did-westerners-come-up-with-hari-kari/173077/8 "2003-05-07T16:41:28Z")
Of course if you don’t anglicize the “r” sound, it sounds a little like “Hello Kitty”. 😃
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### Author:  [@psiekier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psiekier)
#### Post date: [May 8, 2003, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-did-westerners-come-up-with-hari-kari/173077/9 "2003-05-08T01:42:57Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by John Mace \*
> **If it’s any consolation, the Japanese mutilate the pronunciation of English words they borrow, too (eg, Hotel becomes “ho-tay-ru”).**
Really?!? [You’re kidding!](http://www.engrish.com/)
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [May 8, 2003, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-did-westerners-come-up-with-hari-kari/173077/10 "2003-05-08T02:17:23Z")
And then there are my favorite Japanese drinks:
**Kalpis** and **Pocari Sweat**.
Or the literal translation into English of the Kanji on a map as “Standing Now” for “You are here”.
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### Author:  [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)
#### Post date: [May 8, 2003, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-did-westerners-come-up-with-hari-kari/173077/11 "2003-05-08T03:04:14Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by John Mace \*
> \*\*
>
> I guess “Harry Karry” rhymes and sounds a bit “funny”, so maybe it’s a way of taking a backhanded swipe at the Japanese, who were our enemies in WWII. \*\*
What are you doing, involving Harry Cary like that? What did he ever do to you besides broadcast Cubs games?
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### Author:  [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)
#### Post date: [May 8, 2003, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-did-westerners-come-up-with-hari-kari/173077/12 "2003-05-08T05:43:04Z")
FWIW, _seppuku_ and _harakiri_ use the same kanji, but in reverse order. The character for ‘stomach’ can be read as either _hara_ or _fuku_, while the character for ‘cut’ can be read as either _setsu_ or _ki(ru)_ (the latter is the verb form, so the ending half can change). Put together, you get _harakiri_, ‘stomach cutting’, or _setsufuku_, which then gets condensed to _seppuku_, ‘cutting the stomach’.
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### Author:  [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)
#### Post date: [May 8, 2003, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-did-westerners-come-up-with-hari-kari/173077/13 "2003-05-08T11:04:00Z")
> [@](#):
>
> I guess “Harry Karry” rhymes and sounds a bit “funny”, so maybe it’s a way of taking a backhanded swipe at the Japanese, who were our enemies in WWII.
I don’t think there’s anything of a “swipe” about it at all. As I noted above, there is a tendency to change words to rhyming sets – and not just in English. There are cases in other languages as well. As one example, consider the words “Hocus Pocus”, usede as a magical incantation. It has been suggested (most plausibly, I think) that this comes from “Hoc est corpus meum”, the Latin spoken at the moment the Host is elevated in the RC Mass, and when the Bread is seen to become the Body of Christ. (Much magic steals from various religions).
And, as I suggest, the name of Harry Carey might have suggested the rhyming form _hara kiri_ be changed to.
None of this is disrespect or swiping at another language.