# So how do you feel about paid parental leave? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 25, 2015, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882 "2015-01-25T19:54:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2015, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/201 "2015-01-28T13:56:14Z")
Seems like there’s scientific evidence that concludes that maternal leave results in decreases in infant mortality, with some of the findings being “substantial” benefits to children’s health. Do these help? > **[Parental Leave and Child Health](https://www.nber.org/papers/w6554)** > > Founded in 1920, the NBER is a private, non-profit, non-partisan organization dedicated to conducting economic research and to disseminating research findings among academics, public policy makers, and business professionals. > **[nihms-474714.pdf](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3698961/pdf/nihms-474714.pdf)** [http://futureofchildren.org/publications/journals/article/index.xml?journalid=76&articleid=557§ionid=3855](http://futureofchildren.org/publications/journals/article/index.xml?journalid=76&articleid=557§ionid=3855) > **[Year's paid maternity leave would save lives of babies, says study](https://www.theguardian.com/money/2005/mar/15/workandcareers.childrensservices)** > > Extending paid maternity leave for new mothers significantly reduces infant mortality, according to a groundbreaking international study. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2015, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/202 "2015-01-28T14:06:07Z")
> [@Drum\_God](#): > > Fair enough. > > So, what is a possible solution. Let’s suppose that the parents “waltz[ed] out the door” for something less trivial than a soccer game. Rather than take away the opportunity for a parent to care for a child, could we instead insure the opportunity for you (in the broad sense) to take care of the medical needs of a family member? It seems that some sort of accommodation could be made. > > (Why did HR get an earful over that? Was there a company policy that allowed you to miss work due to your uncle’s issues? Was there a company policy that allowed time off for soccer games? Were company policies properly applied? What I am suggesting is that, perhaps, the conflict over this issue might have been averted if there were some overriding policy (let’s call it a law) that guaranteed your opportunity to care for your uncle.) I agree that accommodation should be made. However the accommodation should be for ALL employees family needs, not just parents. HR got an earful because my ex-supervisor (note the use of the term ex-) thought carrying for my uncle who had a stroke wasn’t a valid reason for me to use so much vacation time while various parents in the department used vacation and even sick time for all sorts of nonessential things for their children. Serious what should be prioritized, a disabled adult who needs help in recovery or a child’s soccer game? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2015, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/203 "2015-01-28T14:06:23Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > I suggest we start with 940 weeks off for both parents. At 1.5x-pay, naturally, as kids are expensive. It’s the right thing to do. It gives me the good feels. And it will shoot our economy to the moon. Got a good deal on straw, did you? ---
**Author:** ![Drum\_God](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drum_god/32/44_2.png) [@Drum\_God](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drum_God)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2015, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/204 "2015-01-28T14:18:17Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I agree that accommodation should be made. However the accommodation should be for ALL employees family needs, not just parents. HR got an earful because my ex-supervisor (note the use of the term ex-) thought carrying for my uncle who had a stroke wasn’t a valid reason for me to use so much vacation time while various parents in the department used vacation and even sick time for all sorts of nonessential things for their children. Serious what should be prioritized, a disabled adult who needs help in recovery or a child’s soccer game? But did that supervisor follow company policy? Does your company allow time off for caring for sick uncles? (Mine does not as an uncle is not defined as an immediate family member.) I don’t doubt your need to take care of your uncle, but that isn’t the company’s need. What if the stroke victim were your cousin rather than your uncle? Does company policy define who is a family member and who is not? ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2015, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/205 "2015-01-28T14:24:46Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > So show us how it works. With numbers. Cost. Benefit. Already did a back-of-the-envelope calculation in this thread. However, it is [generally](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/29/world/europe/29iht-letter29.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0) [believed](http://oecdobserver.org/news/fullstory.php/aid/3898/Women_in_work:_The_Norwegian_experience.html) that policies that make it easier to combine child-rearing and work pay off for a country. If you disagree, it is up to you to show your reasoning and numbers. In any case, the US has historically not needed policies to encourage the domestic production of taxpayers. Both the population and labor force participation has been kept high by a stream of immigrants from Europe. These have been far cheaper than producing, raising and educating taxpayers domestically, since all that is done for free. However, with the difference in opportunity and standards of living no longer vastly in the US favor, that spigot is shut off. The US either have to adpot policies to produce this domestically, including the ones that decrease the number of dysfunctional products, or accept much larger rates of immigration form non-European sources. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2015, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/206 "2015-01-28T15:00:03Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I’m not a parent and never will be. I’m single and live alone. > > What’s in it for me, other than having to occasionally take up the slack at work of others who are on leave? Breastfeeding is easier if Mom doesn’t need to leave the baby 10 hours a day. Babies who are breastfed get fewer illnesses than babies who aren’t, even after they’re no longer being breastfed. If their babies are sick less often due to being breastfed exclusively for [at least 3 months](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2812877/) you’ll have fewer days _unexpectedly_ covering a coworker whose 11 month old has an ear infection, respiratory or GI illness etc. And in the case of baby getting or not getting an illness, the parent is less likely to get it and give it to you too. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2015, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/207 "2015-01-28T15:18:19Z")
> [@Drum\_God](#): > > I don’t doubt your need to take care of your uncle, but that isn’t the company’s need. What if the stroke victim were your cousin rather than your uncle? Does company policy define who is a family member and who is not? Parent’s need to take care of children is not a company need either. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2015, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/208 "2015-01-28T15:50:42Z")
> [@Drum\_God](#): > > But did that supervisor follow company policy? Does your company allow time off for caring for sick uncles? (Mine does not as an uncle is not defined as an immediate family member.) I don’t doubt your need to take care of your uncle, but that isn’t the company’s need. What if the stroke victim were your cousin rather than your uncle? Does company policy define who is a family member and who is not? People really need to stop assuming that the nuclear family model is universal. There are some parents who are more like distance relatives to their children, and some aunts/uncles who are more like parents. And plenty of people view cousins as akin to siblings. Or hell, even their own children in some unusual circumstances. A childless person still has obligations to family. And it is in their best interest to fulfill those obligations, because there will likely come a time when they will have to draw on family resources as they get older. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2015, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/209 "2015-01-28T15:50:50Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > However the accommodation should be for ALL employees family needs, not just parents. From your earlier posts, I thought you were talking about some other kind of special accommodation being required for childless people. This, on the other hand, is completely reasonable. I think a good policy would allow a certain number of weeks of paid family leave to be taken every so often ought to cover things like caring for children after their birth, recovering from some illness, or caring for a sick family member on an equal basis. So regardless of whether someone needs to care for an infant or care for a seriously ill spouse (or other relation), I think the exact same policies ought to apply. What I do not believe is justifiable – and what I thought you were arguing earlier – is that someone with a child is eligible only for leave to care for the infant, and someone without children is eligible only for care of sick relatives, and never the two shall meet. As in, if you have a child and you want to take leave to care for a sick father instead of taking leave to care for an infant, you wouldn’t be allowed to do that. My concept is that the leave should be for family and medical issues of a significant nature, and however a person may wish to use that leave within those bounds, with a certain number of weeks every so often, they get to choose how to use that. Agreed? > [@](#): > > Serious what should be prioritized, a disabled adult who needs help in recovery or a child’s soccer game? Notwithstanding your axe to grind against your employer, I don’t think anyone has proposed that this type of leave be available for things like a piano recital or soccer game. ---
**Author:** ![Tuxie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ee59a6/32.png) [@Tuxie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuxie)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2015, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/210 "2015-01-28T16:23:08Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > People really need to stop assuming that the nuclear family model is universal. There are some parents who are more like distance relatives to their children, and some aunts/uncles who are more like parents. And plenty of people view cousins as akin to siblings. Or hell, even their own children in some unusual circumstances. > > A childless person still has obligations to family. And it is in their best interest to fulfill those obligations, because there will likely come a time when they will have to draw on family resources as they get older. In the case of children, the parent is legally responsible for the children’s well being. For another relative, it gets rather hazy. While a childless person may of course have obligations to their family as well, all things being equal it is everything a parent has to deal with minus the childcare responsibility. Family obligations also vary. I would say caring for elderly parents that live in the same household, having power of attorney over a mentally ill sibling or legal guardianship over a minor cousin carries weight. But something like a sick cat, friend or distant relative does not. You imply childless people are more likely to be responsible for their families than people with kids, but that is no guarantee. Maybe for child free employees that still live with immediate family, but the examples I’ve seen, I’ve known childfree people who lived very far from family (for various reasons but primarily due to the freedom of living anywhere they wanted), and people with nuclear families tending to live in the same metro area of their family which helps with childcare needs. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2015, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/211 "2015-01-28T16:33:05Z")
> [@Tuxie](#): > > In the case of children, the parent is legally responsible for the children’s well being. Right, the PARENT is legally responsible. An employer is not. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2015, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/212 "2015-01-28T17:13:20Z")
> [@Tuxie](#): > > In the case of children, the parent is legally responsible for the children’s well being. For another relative, it gets rather hazy. While a childless person may of course have obligations to their family as well, all things being equal it is everything a parent has to deal with minus the childcare responsibility. They aren’t legally obligated to attend every soccer match or awards ceremony, though. A coworker’s desire to show up for a soccer match shouldn’t come at the expense of another coworker’s desire to visit a sick aunt or uncle before the end of visiting hours. A workplace shouldn’t put the love of children ahead of other family obligations, is all I’m saying. This is a separate issue from who should and shouldn’t be eligible for paid FMLA leave. But I’d hope that there could be some discretion. Persons who are legally obligated to care for a family member, regardless of degree of kinship or court documentation, should be recognized the same way. Plenty of folks have been hauled off to jail for providing improper care of an elderly person. If this is fair, so is providing those caretakers with a subsidy to help them provide adequate care. Not everyone will need paid materinity leave and not everyone will need paid elder-care leave. But both should be available to help those who do need these things. It’s not a childless vs. parent issue, in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2015, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/213 "2015-01-28T17:26:20Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Parent’s need to take care of children is not a company need either. Of course much of the funding for parental leave should come from general tax revenue; and I think that’s how it’s done in most of the world’s developed countries. The biggest need from employers is simply _ **to allow even unpaid leave** _ without penalty, something many companies are unwilling to do in unregulated Dog-eat-dog conditions. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2015, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/214 "2015-01-28T17:43:45Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Notwithstanding your axe to grind against your employer, I don’t think anyone has proposed that this type of leave be available for things like a piano recital or soccer game. And here is another class divide. People in relatively high level salaried jobs are able to go to a recital or piano lesson with no problems, assuming they do the job. They are also able to work late, come in early, and do work from home. Those in hourly or lower level jobs would have problems. It sounds like ZPG got berated for taking vacation for the “wrong” reason. No employer around here would have a lot of people left if they tried to pull crap like that. The income divide is not just an income divide - it is also a flexibility and benefits divide. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2015, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/215 "2015-01-28T17:59:38Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > There has been a few question about how this works in other countries. This is how it works in Norway: > > The total parental leave is 47 weeks at 100 % pay, or 57 weeks at 80%. 10 weeks are earmarked for each parent, the remaining 27-37 weeks can be allocated as the parents wish. > > While you are on leave, your pay is being paid by the government, not your employer. > > Your employer will normally replace you with someone on a time-limited contract. In Norway, there are a lot of legal protections for workers, and this means the hiring process is very conservative. It is inordinately hard to get your first job after graduation. However, time-limited positions to cover for maternity leave is less of a risk for employers, and it is traditionally how you get your first job and references. Since the replacement is normally brand new, they’ll cost less in terms of wages. > > The manager should have had a few months to prepare before the pregnant worker goes out on leave. Any manager who has a problem ensuring a smooth transition with months to prepare should not be a manager. This is an essential area of competence. > > As an investment, this is generally considered to yield gigantic returns financially. > > Making it easier to have kids and return to the workforce ensurers that more women do return to the workforce and spend a few more decades as taxpayers, being massive assets. Growing up with employed parents who go to work every day makes it far more likely the kid will become a productive asset. (taxpayer). > > Now, I made a back-of-the-envelope calculation on how much this is worth to us. Personal taxation is about 35 % of the government budget. Female employment is 74 %. In the US it is 62 %, so we are 12 % over. Thats an extra 6 % of the total labor force, and so represents 2 % of the budget. > > In the US budget, a similar added income would be about 165 billion $, more than the yearly costs of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. **Ruken** , just in case you missed **Grim Render** ’s post at the top of page 3. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2015, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/216 "2015-01-28T18:47:10Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > And here is another class divide. People in relatively high level salaried jobs are able to go to a recital or piano lesson with no problems, assuming they do the job. They are also able to work late, come in early, and do work from home. Those in hourly or lower level jobs would have problems. > > It sounds like ZPG got berated for taking vacation for the “wrong” reason. No employer around here would have a lot of people left if they tried to pull crap like that. > The income divide is not just an income divide - it is also a flexibility and benefits divide. ZPG got threatened with bad performance reviews for taking time off for work because her legitimate family problems were not considered as worthy as those of “parents”. Monstro was very right with the observation that the nuclear family is not the only type of family. And if the parents want the rest of us to care about their families, they need to respect ours. Furthermore, many of the parents trying to claim special rights under the nuclear family model aren’t even living in nuclear families. They are single parents and blended families from previous divorces. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2015, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/217 "2015-01-28T19:05:10Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Of course much of the funding for parental leave should come from general tax revenue; and I think that’s how it’s done in most of the world’s developed countries. > > The biggest need from employers is simply _ **to allow even unpaid leave** _ without penalty, something many companies are unwilling to do in unregulated Dog-eat-dog conditions. No freaking way. Why would a company allow people to be gone without penalty, if they are paid or not? People are hired to do a job. When they are not there, they cannot do the job. Some/most companies have vacation or sick policies that allow a certain level of absences. Beyond that? No way. A job is not something you can come or go as you please. It would be an incredible burden on an employer if the employees could simply show up or not when they felt like it, regardless if they are paid or not. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2015, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/218 "2015-01-28T19:16:01Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > **Ruken** , just in case you missed **Grim Render** ’s post at the top of page 3. This is not a cost benefit analysis. I’ll rough one out tonight. My hunch is that it still works in favor of increased bennies, but we don’t know that yet. I enjoy passing the liberal wank cream round the circle as much as the rest of you, but maybe let’s check if there’s sand in it before having a rub. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2015, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/219 "2015-01-28T19:25:59Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > No freaking way. … It would be an incredible burden on an employer if the employees could simply show up or not when they felt like it, regardless if they are paid or not. I thought the question was about parenting of very young infants. Please ask the Mod to edit the thread title if the issue is [del]parental[/del] leave “whenever they felt like it.” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2015, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/220 "2015-01-28T19:50:20Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > No freaking way. Why would a company allow people to be gone without penalty, if they are paid or not? Because the FMLA requires them to? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882.md?page=12)