# So how do you feel about paid parental leave? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 25, 2015, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882 "2015-01-25T19:54:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/81 "2015-01-26T12:39:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s not a false choice when the objection is “we can’t afford it”, which seems to be a key objection being raised. Sure, there are genuine philosophical questions one can raise, but I’m not addressing that. Yet. This is similar to the objection raised earlier about it not being fair to people who don’t have kids-- if you’re OK with public funding of education, what is your objection to public funding of maternity/paternity leave? I think that people shouldn’t have kids they can’t afford, and that includes having kids they can’t afford to educate. Others are plenty happy to have kids they can’t afford to educate. I’d rather pay to educate them than have a country full of stupid people. I haven’t found a similar argument for parental leave. I suspect there _is_ an economic argument, possibly around retaining skilled workers. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Mighty\_Boosh](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_mighty_boosh/32/1755_2.png) [@The\_Mighty\_Boosh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Mighty_Boosh)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/82 "2015-01-26T13:45:42Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Also I’ve seen where many childfree people begin to resent those parents who get this time off. I have literally never heard anyone begrudge anyone their parental leave. It would be an extraordinarily strange thing to do. This thread surprised me first since it had never occurred to me that the US wouldn’t have paid parental leave. I guess I just assumed it was one of those things that advanced societies would prioritise. But my surprise at that was blitzed by my surprise at the number of people who manage to object to it on principle. There does seem to be a strong and weird strain of masochism woven into US work culture. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/83 "2015-01-26T13:48:45Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Leaving aside the cost, how is it fair to people who don’t have and don’t intent to ever have kids, or those who already have kids? They have to pay (and step up to fill in for those absent) even though it doesn’t benefit them at all really, and actually is just more work. Even if you stick this all to the rich (:dubious:), who does the persons work while they are out? Or does the company/rich also have to pay for a temp to do the job of the person out as well? > > I guess I don’t see why we’d do this. We have FMLA, after all, so this seems to be a bit over the top. If Canada/Europe/whoever makes it work, that’s good for them, but I guess I’m not seeing why we should necessarily do the same. My wife and I both worked during the time we had kids, and when she got pregnant we’d set aside leave (sick and vacation), as well as money for when the babies would come, so that one of us could take off (and usually so my wife could take off a few months after the babies were born). Ideally, we’d give leave where its needed. It wouldn’t just be for parents with newborns. It would be for people who need to help their elderly parents. Or people who are going through chemo or recovering from an accident, or helping a loved one during an illness. If you are lucky enough never to need the leave in your life to care for someone else (maternity leave is the happiest of these events, but maternity leave is no picnic - for women its disability leave. I couldn’t walk in and out of Target for most of my maternity leave, not to mention the sleep deprivation and the toll it took on my mental stability) - then you are actually fairly lucky. And if someone else gets a lot of it because they had three kids, then had a dying parent, and finally had to go through two years of chemo while still working to kick cancer - we really should be past the “his piece of cake is bigger than MINE!!!” I’m less thrilled with year long paid maternity/paternity leave. I’m all for mandated six or eight weeks worth of leave for both parents - mom has to recover, Dad has to help because there is a helpless newborn and a woman who may have just had major surgery - and if not - still just went through something that did a number on her body - and still is. (And long term, I think if Dad is there in the early stages of babyhood, when mom is recovering, he establishes a role in his child’s life that creates for stronger child/father bonds - which helps us have successful families raising kids who are more likely to stay out of trouble and become independent adults without too much strife. In countries where leave is long, there tends to also be a fairly significant economy of consultants, contractors and temporary workers. The jobs may not be as stable as some of the other jobs in the economy - but where you do need to replace someone for a year - that provides another job for a year - which can help with employment. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/84 "2015-01-26T13:48:54Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > I think that people shouldn’t have kids they can’t afford, and that includes having kids they can’t afford to educate. Others are plenty happy to have kids they can’t afford to educate. I’d rather pay to educate them than have a country full of stupid people. I haven’t found a similar argument for parental leave. I suspect there _is_ an economic argument, possibly around retaining skilled workers. You can’t start early enough in make sure little Johnny or Maria builds a good vocabulary and also a tight bond with the parental units. Even rats who are licked more by their mums grow up to be less socially aggressive than their less-licked cousins. If we do have such a benefit, I’d be more in favor of making it a choice-- stay at home for X% of your pay or get subsidized day care. That allows career mined people to get the benefit without hurting their careers, and if the subsidy has to go to certified day care centers there’s some oversight into the quality of care. Paid for by twice the reduction in military spending that we spend on this program. We could call this the “Mormon Family Subsidy Act”. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/85 "2015-01-26T13:56:33Z")
I’ve been thinking about the mandatory leave that some posters have mentioned. I could see something like this cutting both ways. On one hand, it would make the whole notion of paid parental leave more objectionable, especially if there was a 75% pay cut involved. Not every parents wants or needs to take off six weeks. I am also confused how the government enforces such a requirement. Are pregnant mothers mandated to register their pregnancies and identify their male partners (regardless of marital status)? If I’m a dude who just knocked my girlfriend up, who comes after me if I show up to work the day after she delivers? And if I’m a woman who just had a baby two weeks ago, and my retired parents and in-laws are more than willing to help with caretaking, why shouldn’t I be allowed to work if I want to? But on the other hand, forcing parents to go on leave levels the playing field and reduces stigma. Paid parental leave is not going to narrow the wage gap between men and women. Indeed, if it encourages more mothers to take a break from work, then it may widen pay disparities in highly competitive fields. So by forcing all parents to take leave, the “penalty” isn’t shouldered just by women. A workplace can’t use the “mommy track” to explain preferential hiring practices if the majority of employees are on the same “track”. So I’m torn. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/86 "2015-01-26T14:05:43Z")
Would mandatory leave be constitutional? Can the courts stretch the commerce clause that far? I would be, figuratively, violently opposed to such a mandate for philosophical reasons. No government is going to tell me I can’t work if I want to. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/87 "2015-01-26T14:05:59Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > It isn’t a straw man if one can cite conservatives who actually state that minor tax increases on the rich is “class warfare.” Come to think of it, I wonder how many of those conservatives also have stated that they think the “war on women” is a liberal fabrication… It’s a strawman to imply that I said anything of the sort. [QUOTE=msmith537] Maybe we should do away with schools too? Or hospitals, since they are unfair to people who aren’t sick? [/QUOTE] As this is a strawman, since, again, I never said or implied anything of the sort, and I don’t believe anyone else in this thread has either. It’s also, yet again, an apples to oranges comparison that is being trotted out because of it’s emotional impact, not because it’s relevant to the question being asked or the answers given. Instead of appeals to emotion and silly strawmen, why don’t we stick to the actual subject of the thread and the comments that have actually been made? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/88 "2015-01-26T14:15:14Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Would mandatory leave be constitutional? Can the courts stretch the commerce clause that far? > > I would be, figuratively, violently opposed to such a mandate for philosophical reasons. No government is going to tell me I can’t work if I want to. Well, in some places liberty is a secondary or tertiary interest to concepts like fairness or the government simply deciding what’s best for you. Let’s hope that virus never infects our society. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/89 "2015-01-26T14:19:32Z")
2 wage earners per family has become the norm, or at least much more normal then it was. Could that be at the root of the questions in the OP"s post? In some ways compensation is pressured by expected standard of living for a certain profession. If 2 incomes per household is now expected, wouldn’t there be pressure for wages per person to adjust to the level of the standard of living expected for someone with such a profession? If so I would guess it is a very long term process (perhaps decades long) which tend towards a zeroing out of the benefit of a 2 income household. So ultimately 2 people are working for the same as 1 income earner per household used to be able to do. This paid parental leave is a correction based on needs of children for care and also for the support money needed for them, so I see it as a good thing, a step in the right direction, correcting the above pressure that tends to level wages to a expected standard of living that now required 2 working parents to maintain. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/90 "2015-01-26T14:33:57Z")
> [@XT](#): > > It’s a strawman to imply that I said anything of the sort. Let me recap here: I say I’m tired of conservatives who swing the term “class warfare” around like its a dead cat, especially in relation to rejecting the idea that there are policies which are actually destructive to women. Then you say that you can’t swing a dead cat without hitting examples of class warfare. And now you say that I’m mischaracterizing the loose use of the term “class warfare”? Whatever, dude. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/91 "2015-01-26T14:36:47Z")
Maternity/Paternity leave is not, at least for me, for the parents’ sake but for the kids’. Any society needs kids to grow up healthy and well-taken care of so some maternity/paternity leave is in the offing. I’m a satunch conservative and also, but the value of family and care is more important, in this case at least, tan other options. Here in Peru, the mother get 45 pre- and 45 days post-birth leave. Women can arrange to move the “pre” days into “post” so you see most working women goint to work until a week before birth. You get full salary. Social Security pays the company certain ammount of money (it usuallu covers all the salary unless you’re in top 25% earning job. 5 years ago or so, dads got 4 days of post-birth paid leave. Yeah, it costs money, but it’s not that much. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/92 "2015-01-26T14:37:30Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Well, in some places liberty is a secondary or tertiary interest to concepts like fairness or the government simply deciding what’s best for you. Let’s hope that virus never infects our society. We’re already chronically infected. But I haven’t given up hope that one day I’ll be able to buy marijuana legally in my state, if we can just break the Republican stranglehold on liberty. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/93 "2015-01-26T14:43:44Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Let me recap here: I say I’m tired of conservatives who swing the term “class warfare” around like its a dead cat, especially in relation to rejecting the idea that there are policies which are actually destructive to women. Then you say that you can’t swing a dead cat without hitting examples of class warfare. And now you say that I’m mischaracterizing the loose use of the term “class warfare”? > > Whatever, dude. _sigh_ I didn’t say you are ‘mischaracterizing’ the use of the term ‘class warfare’…I’m saying that I didn’t say anything remotely like ’ Conservatives start shrieking “class warfare!!!” if someone proposes raising the taxes paid by millionaires by 1%'. That makes it a strawman argument when directed at ME, since I’ve deliberately focused on the impact of ADDITIONAL PAID leave outside of what people are already entitled to from their jobs on their co-workers, not on rich fat cats. I wouldn’t think this would be that difficult to follow, but I guess it is. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/94 "2015-01-26T14:43:51Z")
Just a comment - I think the only mention of Mandatory leave was in the UK, in one of **Captain Ridley’s Shooting Party’s** posts. I was going to post, asking him how that works. It’s not the case in Canada. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/95 "2015-01-26T14:46:22Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Just a comment - I think the only mention of > Mandatory leave was in the UK, in one of **Captain Ridley’s Shooting Party’s** posts. I was going to post, asking him how that works. > > It’s not the case in Canada. I believe **Voyager** stated that it was mandatory in Germany. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/96 "2015-01-26T15:04:20Z")
I didn’t read **Voyager** as saying that parental leave was mandatory in Germany, but that if the person took more than 6 weeks, the employer was expected to hire a substitute. > [@Voyager](#): > > My daughter in Germany was a beneficiary - not because she became a mother, but because she worked for over a year replacing someone taking the leave. If someone is out for 6 weeks, then those in the office have to pick up the slack. If someone is out for a year, then someone should be hired, temporarily, as a replacement. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/97 "2015-01-26T15:18:21Z")
I misunderstood him when he said “There you are pretty much forced to take it.” ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/98 "2015-01-26T15:23:28Z")
I missed that comment. Is it by law, social pressure or what? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/99 "2015-01-26T15:33:05Z")
Oh, I see the comment you meant. I thought **Voyager** was talking about vacation leave, that in Germany you’re pretty much forced to take your vacation leave, compared to the situation in California. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/100 "2015-01-26T15:35:01Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **marshmallow** : > > My dear fellow, you must be a neophyte to the American political arena. Republicans are all about family values. They never fail to emphasize how the family is the keystone of society. Liberals are the ones seeking to destroy marriage so they can trap as many single mothers on the dole as possible. So where the parties line up on issues like this is quite clear. I honestly can’t tell if this is meant to be sarcastic or not. I thought that **marshmallow** was a Republican, which would make the sarcasm seem oddly placed, but I can’t see any non-sarcastic way to read it. And to all of those complaining about paying a tax for something you’ll never benefit from, I have a compromise proposal: The tax will only apply to those who have been infants. Anyone who has never been an infant will be exempt from the tax. While we’re at it, I’ll even extend this policy, and say that anyone who has never been a child is exempt from taxes to support schools. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882.md?page=6)