# So how do you feel about paid parental leave? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 25, 2015, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882 "2015-01-25T19:54:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/121 "2015-01-26T18:27:28Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > If someone wanted to take a month and a half every few years to totally devote their life to enfeebled people, perhaps society should make accommodations for that, on the basis that it is a similar duty that parents must perform in the early weeks of an infant’s life. > > Sound fair? I my opinion that would be fair, but I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for parents to agree. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/122 "2015-01-26T18:28:59Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I my opinion that would be fair, but I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for parents to agree. Why? Do you think parents would think that the volunteer would have it too easy? ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/123 "2015-01-26T18:37:25Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Why? Do you think parents would think that the volunteer would have it too easy? Based on my experience, when I needed to take time off to care for a relative who had a stroke, He77 yes. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/124 "2015-01-26T18:38:41Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I just thought of something: if some people are genuinely concerned about “fairness” for people without children, what if they were afforded an opportunity to take paid leave for a similar purpose? > > I’m thinking about someone who has no children, but would like to take six weeks to volunteer in a capacity where they are on the job 24 hours a day, seven days a week, to care for the health, feeding, and hygiene of people who are unable to take care of themselves. For example, becoming a live-in orderly at a hospice or similar institution. No vacation days, no time off: just subordinating one’s own life for a while to being totally on-call for another person’s needs. > > If someone wanted to take a month and a half every few years to totally devote their life to enfeebled people, perhaps society should make accommodations for that, on the basis that it is a similar duty that parents must perform in the early weeks of an infant’s life. > > Sound fair? I mentioned this earlier. I think it would be the only thing that would prevent resentment in the work place (except take out the ‘for a similar purpose’)…as I said, it’s like the old smokers break thing. The resolution for that was to allow basically everyone to take a similar break on a similar time frame. Not sure how all of this would be paid for, as it’s not just the time off but the staffing issues as well, but I think it would be the only fair thing if you were going to do it. If, as I’ve noted several times, we are only talking about advancing leave then this is something that can easily be accommodated, and in fact at my work we already do this. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/125 "2015-01-26T19:05:03Z")
Since childless people are often leaned upon to be first responders for elder care, and elder care can be just as burdensome as, if not more than, caring for a child, and improperly cared-for elderly can be downright scary (I’m thinking of cooking and driving accidents) and stressful for a family, then I don’t understand why this wouldn’t be covered too. Well, there’s one hiccup. Assuming that both baby and mother are healthy, you’ve got a fairly predictable and relatiively quick turn-around time. But elder care can drag on for years and years. You could use six weeks to pack up a parent and get them settled in an assisted living place. But if they get kicked out after a month, then what? I hope I’m never in this situation. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/126 "2015-01-26T19:21:08Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Yet another thread where conservatives complain about a proposal working just fine in the socialist hellhole of Europe, yet don’t ask themselves even once why the citizens said countries aren’t champing at the bit to destroy all these wallet draining programs if they’re so horrible. Is it working just fine in the EU? Their overall economy isn’t as strong as the US and is taking longer to recover from the Great Recession. According to [World Bank](http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD/countries/EU?display=graph) the per capita of the EU is ~$36k (2013) and the US is ~$53k (2013). Paid parental leave is a potential drain on the economy and I’d like to know (or at least have a knowledgeable guess) how much it is before I support it. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/127 "2015-01-26T19:27:38Z")
Hmm…[this wiki page](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP_per_capita) lists US per capita GDP as $42k in 2012. Not sure why Google’s number (do a search on “gdp per capita us”) is so much higher. Hard to believe GDP went up $10k in a year. Must be different calculations. Still, the US GDP per capita is well above the EU as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/128 "2015-01-26T19:35:12Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > Is it working just fine in the EU? Their overall economy isn’t as strong as the US and is taking longer to recover from the Great Recession. According to [World Bank](http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD/countries/EU?display=graph) the per capita of the EU is ~$36k (2013) and the US is ~$53k (2013). Paid parental leave is a potential drain on the economy and I’d like to know (or at least have a knowledgeable guess) how much it is before I support it. My understand is that Europe is having a slower recovery due to the German insistence on Austerity rather than the Keynesian approach used by Presidents Obama and Bush. The Maternity leave is a drop in the bucket. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/129 "2015-01-26T19:45:31Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > Is it working just fine in the EU? Their overall economy isn’t as strong as the US and is taking longer to recover from the Great Recession. According to [World Bank](http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD/countries/EU?display=graph) the per capita of the EU is ~$36k (2013) and the US is ~$53k (2013). Paid parental leave is a potential drain on the economy and I’d like to know (or at least have a knowledgeable guess) how much it is before I support it. I can’t find information on the immediate cost (i.e. total payments + admin costs). I expect those are easier to nail down than potential economic benefits. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/130 "2015-01-26T20:44:36Z")
To those who are concerned with how childless workers feel about paid maternity/paternity leave, do you believe that the companies who currently offer paid leave are somehow worse off as a result of their corporate policy? For example, Google offers five months of paid leave. Would you contend that the Google workforce is somehow weakened, or the company compromised, as a result of dissatisfied childless workers who are jealous of the paid leave afforded to new parents? Would Bank of America be a better company if it didn’t offer 12 weeks of paid leave? Is Ernst and Young committing business suicide by offering 39 weeks of paid leave to new mothers? And if these large companies can cope with such a policy, why are they different than other large companies who you seem to think would be damaged by mandatory paid leave? Note that I would expect the rules to be different for small businesses than for large corporations if a law were to be enacted, for the perfectly obvious reasons. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/131 "2015-01-26T20:49:48Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > But on the other hand, forcing parents to go on leave levels the playing field and reduces stigma. Paid parental leave is not going to narrow the wage gap between men and women. Indeed, if it encourages more mothers to take a break from work, then it may widen pay disparities in highly competitive fields. So by forcing all parents to take leave, the “penalty” isn’t shouldered just by women. A workplace can’t use the “mommy track” to explain preferential hiring practices if the majority of employees are on the same “track”. I don’t know if anyone else has pointed this out, but parental leave isn’t just about leveling the playing field in the workplace. I support it because it helps level the playing field in the home. When it’s just the mother who takes time off for the newborn, she starts out becoming a lot more proficient at childcare than the dad. This can translate into him being less comfortable with caregiving, less confident in his abilities to parent without supervision, and more likely to see himself as just a helper instead of a full fledged partner. If she’s the only one taking time off, it becomes very difficult for him to rack up the baby contact hours that she has, and it eventually becomes much easier for him to just hand the crying baby off to the pro rather deal with it himself. So the mother ends up being responsible for most of the caregiving, and then isn’t able to give enough attention at work to stay competitive. And then she gets criticized for “trying to have it all” while a man gets kudos if he manages to change a diaper without screwing it up. Allowing men to take paid paternity leave supports a culture that puts motherhood and fatherhood on par with each other. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/132 "2015-01-26T20:55:57Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Note that I would expect the rules to be different for small businesses than for large corporations if a law were to be enacted, for the perfectly obvious reasons. If paid parental leave is paid through SS, how do you justify giving it to some but not all workers? Would the payroll tax only apply to businesses with a certain staffing level? Does something like this already exist? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/133 "2015-01-26T21:08:01Z")
I don’t know that the parental leave would be paid through Social Security, so I couldn’t presume to know how the policy would be applied to small versus large businesses. The (rather unimportant) presumption in my question is predicated off of employers paying for the leave themselves, for which a distinction between small versus large employers is obviously a consideration. Nonetheless, the question you ask, while important, isn’t the same issue as I was eliciting responses to. If we know that certain Fortune 500 companies have rather generous parental leave policies; and some contend that such policies would sow discord among employees; does it then follow that these Fortune 500 companies I mentioned are somehow paying a price with their workforce in order to offer that benefit? As in, have those companies actually decided to offer a benefit against their own best interest? Or, if those companies can be successful businesses while maintaining rather generous parental leave policies (noting that two of them are listed on Fortune’s “Best Places to Work” list), why are those companies able to do it, but other large companies might not? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/134 "2015-01-26T21:30:16Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I don’t know that the parental leave would be paid through Social Security, so I couldn’t presume to know how the policy would be applied to small versus large businesses. > > The (rather unimportant) presumption in my question is predicated off of employers paying for the leave themselves, for which a distinction between small versus large employers is obviously a consideration. > > Nonetheless, the question you ask, while important, isn’t the same issue as I was eliciting responses to. If we know that certain Fortune 500 companies have rather generous parental leave policies; and some contend that such policies would sow discord among employees; does it then follow that these Fortune 500 companies I mentioned are somehow paying a price with their workforce in order to offer that benefit? As in, have those companies actually decided to offer a benefit against their own best interest? > > Or, if those companies can be successful businesses while maintaining rather generous parental leave policies (noting that two of them are listed on Fortune’s “Best Places to Work” list), why are those companies able to do it, but other large companies might not? No way to tell, really, without examining the companies policies in detail. Do they offer some incentive to people above child bearing age or who won’t have children? How are their staffing policies and levels…do they have alternatives or temps to fill in for those who will be out due to paternal leave? Is this all part of a broader leave policy, perhaps with a sabbatical type system for those who don’t use this type of leave? Are there any other monetary compensations to those who don’t use this leave? Is this something expected in their competitors (i.e. do they do this because it’s expected or done by companies who are competing for the same types of employees)? There are a host of questions you’d need to answer before you could make a rational answer to whether what Bank of America does foments or alleviates resentment and whether what they do could be more broadly applies to every other company and agency in the country. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/135 "2015-01-26T21:39:59Z")
But if you’re arguing that companies would have some kind of damage to workforce morale as a result of a national family leave policy, I think the burden is on you to explain why the companies who already have such a policy are doing something that could not easily be replicated elsewhere. In other words, if you contend that companies would have worker morale problems for offering paid maternity leave, then you should explain why the companies that already offer such leave are apparently very successful, but cannot be models for other companies. Saying that the companies with family leave might have other policies in place is really an appeal to ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/136 "2015-01-26T21:50:32Z")
Some companies can do it so why can’t all companies do it? That seems shortsighted. Successful companies find ways to do a lot of things that may not be core to their business. That’s great for them but not a comment on the viability of that task. Otherwise you could say if Google can make a bazillion dollars why can’t Sun Microsystems make a bazillion dollars. If Google can offer free food to all its employees why can’t all companies offer free food to all their employees ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/137 "2015-01-26T21:52:02Z")
[QUOTE=Ravenman] But if you’re arguing that companies would have some kind of damage to workforce morale as a result of a national family leave policy, I think the burden is on you to explain why the companies who already have such a policy are doing something that could not easily be replicated elsewhere. [/QUOTE] How can I explain how your example does or does not cause harm or bad feelings when I don’t know their policies. In my own organization we already have a policy that allows for advances on leave for an emergency…and having a baby qualifies and has been used. This is available to ALL employees, not just those in the vertical category of having a baby, so doesn’t cause undue resentment. We also already have FMLA available. Again, this is something that is available to all employees. And yet, I’ve seem at least 3 examples in the last year where someone using FMLA was resented for doing so because that shifted their work onto others (and it was felt that in at least one of those instances the person was doing it deliberately, which I don’t think was the case). As for BoA, let me ask you…if it’s such a no brainer, why doesn’t every company and organization adopt similar policies (whatever those actually are)? I mean, the very fact that the government itself doesn’t and is only starting to look at advanced leave on the Federal level seems to indicate that there must be something holding back the enlightenment, no? > [@](#): > > In other words, if you contend that companies would have worker morale problems for offering paid maternity leave, then you should explain why the companies that already offer such leave are apparently very successful, but cannot be models for other companies. Saying that the companies with family leave might have other policies in place is really an appeal to ignorance. I HAVE explained why I think workers could potentially be resentful and I’ve also explained why just telling me BoA might do something doesn’t really provide enough information to make an informed assessment. I even went into detail as to why BoA might be able to do what they do and not foment resentment…and how my own organization handles this without undue resentment. This isn’t an appeal to ignorance at all…it’s an appeal for you to back up your own claims, if you wish, by providing more about BoA’s policies. If they simply allow additional vertical leave due to pregnancy and no other additional compensation or benefits to other employees and if they get zero resentment for that, well, I guess then I’d be wrong and you would have demonstrated that, and my own experience would be out the window. Feel free. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2015, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/138 "2015-01-26T22:08:22Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > But if you’re arguing that companies would have some kind of damage to workforce morale as a result of a national family leave policy, I think the burden is on you to explain why the companies who already have such a policy are doing something that could not easily be replicated elsewhere. > > In other words, if you contend that companies would have worker morale problems for offering paid maternity leave, then you should explain why the companies that already offer such leave are apparently very successful, but cannot be models for other companies. Saying that the companies with family leave might have other policies in place is really an appeal to ignorance. I’m unaware of any resentment in the companies I’ve worked at with the policy. On the other hand, most of us have kids, and are well aware that parenting leave is not sitting on the beach. The real question is how many people in these big companies make use of the leave. If someone can theoretically stay out for four months, but everyone actually stays out for two weeks, it is not something which will be resented. And how many fathers take paternal leave, even if they can? It is going to take a change of mindset. I get the impression that people in universities take a lot more advantage of this benefit than people in Silicon Valley, but I have no data. ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/139 "2015-01-27T03:06:33Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > Hmm…[this wiki page](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP_per_capita) lists US per capita GDP as $42k in 2012. Not sure why Google’s number (do a search on “gdp per capita us”) is so much higher. Hard to believe GDP went up $10k in a year. Must be different calculations. > > Still, the US GDP per capita is well above the EU as a whole. The US is more unequal, often significantly so, so for that and other reasons GDP/capita is only one of many measures of well-being. Economic problems in the EU are not caused by too much “socialism” as, in some ways, too little. Greece, Spain, and Portugal were run by right-wing dictatorships for decades after WW2, and the parasitic elites created by those regimes are still around, dodging taxes and otherwise enriching themselves at the public’s expense. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2015, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882/140 "2015-01-27T03:45:51Z")
> [@Renee](#): > > How does this work in other countries? Presumably, employers have the number of employees they need. So they’ll have to hire/train a temp when someone is out of work for several months. Does the gov cover the cost of that, while the employer continues to pay the salary of the missing worker? Or does the gov pay the worker, and the employer finds the replacement on his own dime? In Australia the cost of temp staff etc is born by the employer. the employee is eligible for up to 12 months UNPAID leave with certain guarantees of re-employment at the same level. They can use any accumulated sick/carers leave. Additionally, eligible employees who are the primary carer of a newborn or adopted child get 18 weeks’ leave paid at the national minimum wage. Eligible means having been employed by the same company for a continuous 12 month period before the leave is required. Parental Leave Pay is currently $641.05 per week before tax for a maximum of 18 weeks. This is the hourly rate of the National Minimum Wage x 7.6 (hours in a standard working day) x 5 (days in a standard working week). Parental Leave Pay is a taxable payment. This is the base level however and in my individual contract women can get 6 months paid leave at their current wage, I am in a professional area where it is really tough to get great staff! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-do-you-feel-about-paid-parental-leave/710882.md?page=8)