# So How Far Does One Push The First Amendment Envelope? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 14, 2004, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-far-does-one-push-the-first-amendment-envelope/259860 "2004-08-14T19:20:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2004, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-far-does-one-push-the-first-amendment-envelope/259860/1 "2004-08-14T19:20:50Z")
> [@](#): > > **Too Much Information?** > Web Site Raises Questions About Public Access to Sensitive Government Info > > John Young, a 69-year-old architect, was contacted a few weeks ago by Department of Homeland Security officials, who expressed concern about what he was posting on his Web site. > > Officials questioned Young about information he had posted about the 2004 Democratic National Convention, including satellite photos of the convention site and the location of specific police barricades referred to on the site as “a complete joke.” > > – snip – > > “I know there are a lot of people in the government who find him troublesome,” said former White House terrorism adviser Richard Clarke, now an ABC News consultant. “There is a real tension here between the public’s right to know and civil liberties, on the one hand, and security on the other.” > > But Young argues his actions enhance national security, since he points out to the public vulnerabilities the government does not want to acknowledge. > > – snip – > > When asked how he would respond to those who consider his Web site unpatriotic since it could provide useful information for those who seek to harm the United States, Young said, “If this is not done, more Americans are going to die. More harm is going to come to the United States. It is more patriotic to get information out than to withhold it.” > > Officials acknowledge there is not much they can do; Young has not broken any laws. Source: [http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/US/internet\_sensitive\_info\_040812-1.html](http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/US/internet_sensitive_info_040812-1.html) Now I’ve been reading [Young’s web site](http://cryptome.org/) for years. While some of the links posted first appear to come close to tinfoil hat conspiracy thinking, they do offer an insight not found with front-page major media news. For example, the New York Times buried a story of [security failures at the Olympics](http://cryptome.org/nyt-athens.htm) in the sports pages. Young even had photos sent to him exposing other security failures at the Democratic Convention in Boston just days before the convetion began. (He’ll probably do the same thing with the Republican convention as well.) Quite a few links are Federal Register information highlights, illustrating the continuing secrecy of our government. Some of it I really don’t have a problem, but I am surprised more than once as our government continues to run over the edge with respect to the Constitution. One of the classic series Young runs is his [Eyeball Series](http://eyeball-series.org/) , using publicly available maps and satellite photos of military installations, prominent landmarks, even the homes of politicians. Do you support Young’s efforts? In this post-9/11 world is it too much? Should Young be consider a whistleblower in the sense he merely points out things our government would rather not be exposed, even though the information is publicly available anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2004, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-far-does-one-push-the-first-amendment-envelope/259860/2 "2004-08-14T19:44:21Z")
I don’t have a problem with it. All he’s doing is collating publicly available information. The terrorists have access to the same information. I think it’s a good thing if he can expose flaws in security and force the government to respond to them. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2004, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-far-does-one-push-the-first-amendment-envelope/259860/3 "2004-08-14T22:01:50Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > One of the classic series Young runs is his [Eyeball Series](http://eyeball-series.org/) , using publicly available maps and satellite photos of military installations, prominent landmarks, even the homes of politicians. > > Do you support Young’s efforts? In this post-9/11 world is it too much? Should Young be consider a whistleblower in the sense he merely points out things our government would rather not be exposed, even though the information is publicly available anyway? [Reminds me of this guy.](http://www.ccnr.org/Howard_Morland_model.html) Although that site doesn’t quite explain the end of the case correctly: it never went to the Supreme Court because the article was printed (I forget the exact details). So the case was moot. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The terrorists have access to the same information. That’s true, but to be fair, he’s putting it all in one place ---
**Author:** ![Valgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Valgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valgard)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2004, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-far-does-one-push-the-first-amendment-envelope/259860/4 "2004-08-14T22:46:08Z")
I think I’m with DtC on this one. My Mom may not realize that all this info is available on the internet but you can bet that terrorists do. Keeping that fact hidden might make my Mom feel better (ignorance is bliss) but it doesn’t make anyone any safer. My only proviso is that it’s a good idea to notify the authorities who can fix a perceived security breach first, give them a chance to do their jobs - this guy might have been the first person to spot the flaw (doubtful but could be). If after being notified the authorities take no action then a public statement is in order, it’ll embarrass people and get some action taken. This sort of pattern has been repeated in my line of work (IT) time and time again. MS notified of flaw, given sample exploit and direction to go for fixing it, no action taken for weeks or months, person goes public, MS gets huffy and then a patch magically appears a day or two later. Security through obscurity doesn’t really work too well. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2004, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-far-does-one-push-the-first-amendment-envelope/259860/5 "2004-08-15T05:22:46Z")
If this is all publically-accessible information, why can’t a member of the public share it with other members of the public? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Ilsa\_Lund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a6a055/32.png) [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2004, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-far-does-one-push-the-first-amendment-envelope/259860/6 "2004-08-15T05:43:53Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > If this is all publically-accessible information, why can’t a member of the public share it with other members of the public? 😕 Why do you hate America?😃 I agree with DtC. It’s all available anyway. As long as the government doesn’t try to invoke the Patriot Act to take it down. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2004, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-far-does-one-push-the-first-amendment-envelope/259860/7 "2004-08-15T12:32:02Z")
I think marley23 pretty much posted the governments views on it. By posting it in one place he is making it easier for the terrorists to find it, and by posting what he views as security failures he may be giving them ideas. If they have problems with what he is posting, why don’t they just fix the problems instead of trying to take down this guys site? Now that I think about it, taking down the site is probably cheaper. “We could fix the security issues, but we would have to raise taxes to do it.” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2004, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-far-does-one-push-the-first-amendment-envelope/259860/8 "2004-08-15T13:35:44Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > “We could fix the security issues, but we would have to raise taxes to do it.” :rolleyes: Nah. All we need to do is sell a few more T-Bills. At least that will work as long as investers in other countries will buy them.