# So, how long before ''In God We Trust'' comes off the money? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 27, 2002, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-long-before-in-god-we-trust-comes-off-the-money/116230 "2002-06-27T14:01:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2002, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-long-before-in-god-we-trust-comes-off-the-money/116230/41 "2002-06-29T01:01:34Z")
dreamer wrote: > [@](#): > > I’ve read the “Left Behind” threads here from awhile back and I’m pretty sure many people here are not fond of those books, or their readers ;). I’m not fond of the _Left Behind_ books because they’re **boring.** Oooh! The hero is pointing his gun at the Anti-Christ! He’s got the Enemy in his sights! His fingers are tightening around the trigger! Will he succeed in assassinating him? No, of **course** he won’t succeed. Because the Book of Revelation says the Anti-Christ stays alive until Jesus’s Second Coming. Ya can’t very well build suspense if you already know what’s going to happen. (Oh, and that whole pre-tribulation Rature thing? Not even **in** the Book of Revelation. It was pretty much an invention of John Darby in the 19th century, based on a rather strained connection of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 to the apparently unrelated and somewhat contradictory events in Revelation.) ---
**Author:** ![dalovindj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/65b543/32.png) [@dalovindj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalovindj)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2002, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-long-before-in-god-we-trust-comes-off-the-money/116230/42 "2002-06-29T01:13:40Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t believe anybody’s lies. Unless that book turns out to be false. Then you’ve been suckered, plain and simple. Whether you believe this is a possibility or not does not eliminate the possibility. It just means you have convictions based on feelings as opposed to tangible evidence. Not wise in my book. > [@](#): > > And I am not ignorant thank you very much. Perhaps not all around, but I feel that you are here. If those words are lies, then your believing them is a form of ignorance (read: opposite of knowing the truth). > [@](#): > > Before I even read any type of prophecy book I read the bible. I read the book of Daniel and the book of Acts and of course the Book of Revelation. I believe what I read and how God responds to me in my questioning and my faith. Someone told me they believe there is a giant purple fairy who decides whether the sun comes up every day. He showed me a book about it. Strangely, words in a book aren’t enough to convince me that magical creatures exist. > [@](#): > > I have not been suckered by anyone Unless the bible is just myth and legend with no basis in fact: a possibility whether you like it or not. Unless you claim to be one of those humans incapable of making a mistake. > [@](#): > > I do take offense at you saying that I have and saying what I believe is “religious hogwash”. Call em like I see em. It offends you that I think your beliefs are foolish, based on a very successful con game, and counterproductive to human advancement? Well, then don’t post 'em on a message board dedicated to open debate, critical thought, and truth. I am not attacking you as a person here, I’m attacking the arguments you have made. You read something in that book that you think is true. You have no verifiable proof that it is true. Poor choice. But you must have faith! Which is damn convieninet given the lack of proof. If I wanted to make up a lie, the perfect one would be one that protected itself from being revealed. Faith is just another way of saying “Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.” Most likely the defense mechanism of a lie. > [@](#): > > I also find it offensive that You fight ignorance your own way and I won’t put you down for it, but leave me to fight it my own way too - which is the very reason we are here at the SD. I think you left out a few words here, this doesn’t quite make sense. I feel that believing in things that aren’t true is a form of ignorance. I cannot prove that what you say is not true, but I can make an educated guess based on the evidence that is available. Best as I can tell - it is hogwash and you _have_ been suckered. I may be wrong. Perhaps time will tell. If you’re position is that there is no posibility that you are wrong, well then you’re guilty of a foolish conceit as well. There aint been a human I’ve ever met who could not make a mistake in judgement. Maybe if I meet Cecil one of these days that will change, but until then, I aint buying any bridges no matter what anyone says they know. DaLovin’ Dj ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2002, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-long-before-in-god-we-trust-comes-off-the-money/116230/43 "2002-06-29T01:14:32Z")
To get back to the original point of the debate: Who cares what the money says so long as it is spendable? ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2002, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-long-before-in-god-we-trust-comes-off-the-money/116230/44 "2002-06-29T02:04:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dalovindj \* > \*\* I may be wrong. Perhaps time will tell. > > \*\* and one of us will live happily ever after 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2002, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-long-before-in-god-we-trust-comes-off-the-money/116230/45 "2002-06-29T03:05:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Peyote Coyote \* > \*\*To get back to the original point of the debate: Who cares what the money says so long as it is spendable? \*\* The usual comeback to this is something like: “All right, smarty pants, would you be so _laissez-faire_ about it if our money said ‘Go forth and bomb an abortion clinic’ or ‘Eat babies in the moonlight for Baalzebul’ or ‘The posessor of this bill is a big dumb poopy-head’?” Personally, the thing that seemed the eeriest to me was that “In God We Trust” started appearing on paper money **right** at the same time that “… and is redeemable in Lawful Money at the U.S. Treasury or at any Federal Reserve Bank” **stopped** appearing on paper money. Basically, “In God We Trust” meant “God is the only thing you **can** trust in now that this money isn’t backed by gold or silver any more!” 😉 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2002, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-long-before-in-god-we-trust-comes-off-the-money/116230/46 "2002-06-29T03:22:48Z")
tracer: It could say any or all of those things as well as “The Invisible Pink Unicorn Wants You” and it wouldn’t matter to me in the least provided the banks and my creditors honored it. The rest of your post is very interesting. I guess that means a Federal Reserve Bank doesn’t have to honor money. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2002, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-long-before-in-god-we-trust-comes-off-the-money/116230/47 "2002-06-29T14:41:03Z")
Oh, the Federal Reserve still has to “honor” its money all right. The IRS, the BATF, and any other taxing agency of the Federal government has to honor Federal Reserve Notes too. However, they no longer have to give you precious metals in exchange for Federal Reserve Notes. Even the strongest proponents of our modern monetary system acknowledge that modern U.S. paper money is “fiat money,” backed only by the public’s trust that it’s actually worth something. ---
**Author:** ![Satyagrahi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f475e1/32.png) [@Satyagrahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satyagrahi)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2002, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-long-before-in-god-we-trust-comes-off-the-money/116230/48 "2002-06-30T00:12:33Z")
It might be worth mentioning here that the eye in a triangle above a pyramid as shown on the reverse side of the $1 note are thought to be symbols derived from the secret society of Masons. Many of the Founding Fathers were members thereof and apparently decided it would be a good idea to put these symbols on the currency. Although the Masons deny it, others have often thought them to be anti-Christian or, at least, unChristian and their symbolism a violation of the Ten Commandments. If they’re aware of it, how do devout Christians feel about this aspect of the currency? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2002, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-long-before-in-god-we-trust-comes-off-the-money/116230/49 "2002-06-30T07:12:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > I’m not fond of the _Left Behind_ books because they’re **boring.** Not to turn this into a Cafe Society book-review thread, but I personally couldn’t believe how _stupid_ the characters were (at least in the first book). “Gosh, millions of people suddenly disappeared.” “And all of them were driving cars that said ‘In case of rapture, this car will be unmanned’.” “What could have caused it?” “Must’ve been some sort of freak radiation thingie.” (Gee, I thought the legions of atheists included lots of hard-core scientists. Maybe they all slept through their nuclear science classes 😉 ) “So, what do you think about the new world leader?” “Nice guy, but the name is a bit weird.” “Yeah, Nicolae Carpathia. Sounds familiar somehow…” “Oh, I know, wasn’t he that singer from _New Kids on the Block_?” “Hey, yeah, I think that’s it!” “ **Whew** For a moment, i thought it was out of the Bible or something. Now I won’t have to look it up!” 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Philosophocles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Philosophocles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philosophocles)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2002, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-long-before-in-god-we-trust-comes-off-the-money/116230/50 "2002-06-30T07:44:58Z")
If I had a nickel for every time a politician feigned piety, I could afford to buy all their votes. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Zahn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e0b2c6/32.png) [@John\_Zahn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Zahn)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2002, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-long-before-in-god-we-trust-comes-off-the-money/116230/51 "2002-06-30T19:21:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dreamer \* > \*\* > > Maybe you should read the Book of Revelation so you can see what _really_ happens. 😃 \*\* Dreamer, I take it you understand the Book of Revelation since you’re referring others over to it to see what really happens. In Revelation the 12th chapter I was hoping you could comment on this brief pericope: \*3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born./i] So stopping there, what really is happening here? If one uses allegory to interpret the passages of Revelation, have you even remotely seen any two believers come close to interpreting this book the same? If not; then, isn’t the amount of interpretation infinite, and if you agree; then, does it really tell us anything? IOW, what useful information can be gathered from it? John ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2002, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-long-before-in-god-we-trust-comes-off-the-money/116230/52 "2002-06-30T20:22:22Z")
Satyagrahi: > [@](#): > > It might be worth mentioning here that the eye in a triangle above a pyramid as shown on the reverse side of the $1 note are thought to be symbols derived from the secret society of Masons. > (snip) > …how do devout Christians feel about this aspect of the currency? Good point. Many Christian End-times conspiracy theorists point to the eye-and-pyramid on the sawbuck as proof of anti-Christ influence in the highest levels of government, which ensnares us all via the currency, blah, blah, blah. And yet at the same time Christians regard the design of our currency as sacred with regards to the inclusion of “IGWT”. Why not get rid of them both? ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2002, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-long-before-in-god-we-trust-comes-off-the-money/116230/53 "2002-06-30T21:04:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Zahn \* > > have you even remotely seen any two believers come close to interpreting this book the same? > \*\* I’m sure there are people that agree on how this chapter should be interpreted. Do you need a cite to tell you that’s true? > [@](#): > > then, does it really tell us anything? IOW, what useful information can be gathered from it? It tells us that from the very beginning God knew the end. Through prophecy he proves that, which in turn proves that he _is_ God. - 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: \* 1/3 of the angels chose to follow Lucifer and they were cast out of Heaven. Yes, symbolic expression, but nonetheless - truth. ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2002, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-long-before-in-god-we-trust-comes-off-the-money/116230/54 "2002-06-30T22:03:46Z")
How about this for a solution - Take the IGWT off the currency and replace it with “In _ **THIS** _ we Trust”. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Zahn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e0b2c6/32.png) [@John\_Zahn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Zahn)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2002, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-long-before-in-god-we-trust-comes-off-the-money/116230/55 "2002-06-30T23:36:54Z")
Dreamer, **I’m sure there are people that agree on how this chapter should be interpreted.** I doubt you could get two independent thoughts on this unless they had prior school of thought of others telling them what it is supposed to mean. Although the question was: _have you even remotely seen any two believers come close to interpreting this book the same?_ Not chapter. I just cited the brief pericope to see how you would interpret it. The point I’m trying to make, is, if you’ve got, let’s say, just two different believers each proclaiming they have the truth to a particular passage, but yet both have completely different answers; then, using the most basic logic, would you agree that both can’t be true? At best only one could be true. If numbers are absolutes, is there more than one correct answer to 2+3? Ask that question around the world and would you get an infinite amount of correct answers to it? Currently just from Protestant Christians there are over 35,000 different Protestant Christian denominations alone, and if you‘re getting 35,000 different main schools of thought, or you still getting 35,000 correct and truthful answers? Are all of them right? You said: **It tells us that from the very beginning God knew the end. Through prophecy he proves that, which in turn proves that he is God.** If the end hasn’t came yet; then, one can’t determine that God knew the end. What prophecy proves to you that he is God? What is the one prophecy that really did it for you? Or share two or three if you like. **Do you need a cite to tell you that’s true?** Dropping any Nostradamus symbolic, metaphoric, allegoric, idiotic (no offense) answers, is there any empirical meaning you could give anything in Revelation or anywhere else in the Bible that has happened recently or is going to happen soon? **1/3 of the angels chose to follow Lucifer and they were cast out of Heaven. Yes, symbolic expression, but nonetheless - truth.** And I’ve always been told by believers that Heaven was perfect. If he has to cast out 1/3 of the angels out of Heaven, not only does that tell me that place isn’t perfect, it tells me he can’t even get his own house in order there either, but yet believers can‘t wait to get there. John ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2002, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-long-before-in-god-we-trust-comes-off-the-money/116230/56 "2002-07-01T00:03:03Z")
I predict that _if_ the Supremes uphold the 9th Circuit(which I think should happen, but doubt that it will, to give you my POV), then the motto IGWT will also come off. It strikes me that it is the same kind of issue. The public is forced to deal with it on a daily basis. My solution is to modify the motto: “In God We Trust. All Others Pay Cash.” It should satisfy everyone.🆒 ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2002, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-long-before-in-god-we-trust-comes-off-the-money/116230/57 "2002-07-01T02:28:43Z")
samclem: Unlike the “under God” phrase in the Pledge of Allegiance, IGWT **has** come under Supreme Court scrutiny already. They upheld it. They give it slightly more weight, probably 'cause of the 4th verse of “The Star Spangled Banner”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-long-before-in-god-we-trust-comes-off-the-money/116230.md?page=2)