# So, how many of you dolts don't know about the PNAC... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 16, 2007, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430 "2007-02-16T00:54:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430/21 "2007-02-16T01:51:14Z")
[QUOTE=El\_Kabong] Sure, why not? Let me know when you’ve got your counterargument ready and I’ll be happy to listen to it. [/QUOTE] It make take a while. I’ve got to convince some Christians that Jesus existed first… ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430/22 "2007-02-16T01:53:20Z")
[QUOTE=El\_Kabong] 3. Would you like to put forward the proposition that the ideas of the PNAC, and the fact that several of its members ended up highly placed in the Bush administration, had nothing whatsoever to do with the administration’s decision to go to war with Iraq? [/QUOTE] How could you prove it one way or the other? Isn’t just a “chicken and egg” argument about where and when the philosophy arose? To me, it’s like finding out that several members of Opus Dei are highly placed in the Catholic Church. I’m shocked! _Shocked!_ ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430/23 "2007-02-16T01:58:27Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] _::::shakes head in disgust::::_ Fucking astounding. Simply fucking astounding. [/QUOTE] Okay. Read your Primer to get your slant on the PNAC. Now what precisely are you pitting? That a bunch of really smart, knowledgeable people would be thinking long term? Or that they were working on plans and hypotheticals that would benefit the U.S.? Or just that they had an opportunity to institute their ideas.? Do you think that there are those on the left similarly bright and similarly concerned with the future of their country? Do you think that groups of them might be discussing what would be best for the U.S.? If so, is that a good thing or a bad thing? You might not like their agenda, but isn’t that a problem with their _ideas_, and not that fact that they had a think tank. You know what a think tank is, don’t you? You know what happens in them? So are you pitting all such organizations? Just what, precisely, are you pitting? Do you know what you’re pitting? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430/24 "2007-02-16T01:59:11Z")
[QUOTE=monstro] I didn’t know what PNAC was before this thread. **RedFury** , thanks for the lesson. Just wish you had provided it without all the insults. [/QUOTE] Apologies for my bluntness are in order then. But if you’ve learned just a tad about the PNAC and its influence in your current Government, then I believe my rudeness comes in a far second. * * * **Jodi** , I’d appreciate it if you wouldn’t speak for me. Nor attribute things to me that I never said and/or wrote. See, there’s no “smoking gun,” just a very cleat trail as to where the fumes came from. See, it fired a long time ago when the PNAC got its way with your Dear Misleader and the murderous and unjustifiable Iraq invasion There’s no “A-HA!” moment with regards to the PNAC’s power grab at the WH. That’s really old news. The only “A-HA” moment has to do with how many of you right-wingers prefer to choose ignorance over reality. Have a lovely evening. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430/25 "2007-02-16T01:59:20Z")
Does PNAC still exist? Its [website](http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqmiddleeast.htm) doesn’t appear to have been updated since 2005. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430/26 "2007-02-16T02:01:01Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] Okay. Read your Primer to get your slant on the PNAC. Now what precisely are you pitting? That a bunch of really smart, knowledgeable people would be thinking long term? Or that they were working on plans and hypotheticals that would benefit the U.S.? Or just that they had an opportunity to institute their ideas.? [/QUOTE] But **nothing** they plan or desire has benefited or would benefit the U.S. The American ruling class, yes, but that’s not the same thing at all. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430/27 "2007-02-16T02:02:18Z")
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF] He stated, correctly, that the PNAC is “not official”, in the same way that NARAL is not an official part of the Democratic Party. [/QUOTE] Well, to be fair, it’s only “not official” in the same was as NARAL only if the NARAL members held the posts of [Vice President](http://www.oldamericancentury.org/pnac_profiles/cheney.htm), [Secretary of Defense](http://www.oldamericancentury.org/donald_rumsfeld.htm), [Deputy Secretary of Defense](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Wolfowitz), [Chairman of the Defense Policy Board Advisory Committee](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Perle), [the President’s brother](http://www.oldamericancentury.org/jeb_bush.htm), [the Vice President’s Chief of Staff (Hi, Scooter!)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Libby), [US Ambassador to the United Nations](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_R._Bolton), [Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security Affairs](http://www.whitehouse.gov/government/rodman-bio.html), [Pentagon Comptroller](http://cleveland.indymedia.org/news/2005/01/14509.php), [Deputy Secretary of State](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Zoellick), [Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence (you might want to stay out of Germany for a while, Stephen)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Cambone), etc., in some Democratic administration. While many claim that the near-demise of PNAC is because of the war going so badly, one could make the argument that they just don’t have anyone left since they all work for this administration. While I’ll happily agree that PNAC is not an “official” arm of the administration, I’ll also agree that there are likely many “official” entities that have a shitload less influence than PNAC did over the early years of the Bush administration. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430/28 "2007-02-16T02:02:28Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Does PNAC still exist? Its [website](http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqmiddleeast.htm) doesn’t appear to have been updated since 2005. [/QUOTE] It’s doom, I tell ya. Doom. **DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!** 😃 ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430/29 "2007-02-16T02:05:40Z")
By the way, the only organization that has held that many high-ranking posts in a Democratic administration is the Democratic Party. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430/30 "2007-02-16T02:09:32Z")
This conspiracy theory has a big DUD factor for me. There are many think tanks in Washington representing liberals, conservatives, and special interest groups. The purpose of every single one is to be influential in some way so I can hardly find fault with a think tank for having some measure of success at it. On the other side, we have the actual government who these think tanks are supposed to influence as well as the public in some cases. George Bush has plenty of advisers already. Some are official and part of the cabinet. Others are paid as a de facto part of the government like the White House Chief of Staff and there are the odd consultants as well. The part I am missing is how a Think Tank could stomp all over the actual parts of the government directly. If they were that influential, wouldn’t they already be inside? If not, is the claim that they are controlling a puppet president or that they are merely good at aligning themselves with actual government goals? ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430/31 "2007-02-16T02:11:16Z")
[QUOTE=DMC] By the way, the only organization that has held that many high-ranking posts in a Democratic administration is the Democratic Party. [/QUOTE] But what about the Grey Council? The Jesus Hating Homosexual Feminazi Alliance for Progress? The Tax and Spend Guys that like Blowjobs Coalition? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430/32 "2007-02-16T02:12:16Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] But **nothing** they plan or desire has benefited or would benefit the U.S. The American ruling class, yes, but that’s not the same thing at all. [/QUOTE] That’s a policy discussion. I wasnt to know what was so nefarious about a think tank years before their ideas had the _possibility_ of being adopted. Are all think tanks nefarious? Or only PNAC. And if that’s the case, the problem is simply with the policies it advocated, right? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430/33 "2007-02-16T02:13:48Z")
I have this recurring dream lately where the mods lift the prohibition on posters who make threats of violence, just long enough for **RedFury** and **Oakminster** to plan a suitable time and place to meet up and beat each other to death. Then I wake up and disappointment sets in. More to the topic—I do my best, in every election, to vote these fuckers out of office. Does our resident de Tocqueville have any other (reasonable) suggestions? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430/34 "2007-02-16T02:14:43Z")
[QUOTE=Shagnasty] This conspiracy theory has a big DUD factor for me. There are many think tanks in Washington representing liberals, conservatives, and special interest groups. The purpose of every single one is to be influential in some way so I can hardly find fault with a think tank for having some measure of success at it. [/QUOTE] Exactly. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430/35 "2007-02-16T02:14:51Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Does PNAC still exist? Its [website](http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqmiddleeast.htm) doesn’t appear to have been updated since 2005. [/QUOTE] That’s what they _want_ you to think. [sub]fnord[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430/36 "2007-02-16T02:15:31Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] Okay. Read your Primer to get your slant on the PNAC. Now what precisely are you pitting? That a bunch of really smart, knowledgeable people would be thinking long term? Or that they were working on plans and hypotheticals that would benefit the U.S.? Or just that they had an opportunity to institute their ideas.? Do you think that there are those on the left similarly bright and similarly concerned with the future of their country? Do you think that groups of them might be discussing what would be best for the U.S.? If so, is that a good thing or a bad thing? You might not like their agenda, but isn’t that a problem with their _ideas_, and not that fact that they had a think tank. You know what a think tank is, don’t you? You know what happens in them? So are you pitting all such organizations? Just what, precisely, are you pitting? Do you know what you’re pitting? [/QUOTE] **magellan01** , in the interest of saving some time and doing some actual work that I’ve put on hold for now, I’ll simply refer you back to **BrainGlutton’s** [response](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8264760&postcount=26) which, while succinct, gets to the heart of the matter. As for the object/s of my Pitting, sure, I know exactly what and who they are. Namely all the clueless people that fail or refuse to realize that your Government has been hijacked by a group of powermongering thugs. And the PNAC itelf of course. Pardon the brevity of my reply although I feel I’ve sufficiently responded to both of your queries. With **BrainGlutton’s** aid of course. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430/37 "2007-02-16T02:21:13Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] **magellan01** , in the interest of saving some time and doing some actual work that I’ve put on hold for now, I’ll simply refer you back to **BrainGlutton’s** [response](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8264760&postcount=26) which, while succinct, gets to the heart of the matter. As for the object/s of my Pitting, sure, I know exactly what and who they are. Namely all the clueless people that fail or refuse to realize that your Government has been hijacked by a group of powermongering thugs. And the PNAC itelf of course. Pardon the brevity of my reply although I feel I’ve sufficiently responded to both of your queries. With **BrainGlutton’s** aid of course. [/QUOTE] You have answered nothing. If you think _BrainGlutton_ did, see my reply to him. Now you started a Pit thread about this issue that is soooo horrible. I read the link, the one that would put the issue in the best light for you, now it falls to you to answer those questions. Of course, you can just admit that you like to cluck your toungue and that you don’t even understand what is at the heart of your own OP? Step up. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430/38 "2007-02-16T02:36:01Z")
[Quote=Oakminster] It make take a while. I’ve got to convince some Christians that Jesus existed first… [/Quote] Ok, well, I’d have thought a bloke like you would make short work of that, but that’s fine, take all the time you need. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430/39 "2007-02-16T02:40:16Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] your Government has been hijacked by a group of powermongering thugs [/QUOTE] Wow, it’s _Seven Days in February_. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430/40 "2007-02-16T02:44:54Z")
[QUOTE=El\_Kabong] Ok, well, I’d have thought a bloke like you would make short work of that, but that’s fine, take all the time you need. [/QUOTE] I sorry. I thought it was clear that I was farting in your general direction. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430.md?page=3)