# So, how many of you dolts don't know about the PNAC... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 16, 2007, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430 "2007-02-16T00:54:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430/61 "2007-02-16T07:05:24Z")
Well, OK, let’s say that PNAC is just a bunch of high-falutin’ academics and _apparatchiks_ who are simply playing Civ III or Risk and getting paid for it. So all this conspiracy talk is nonsense, etc. So, what the fuck? You think GeeDub went to war because Saddam tried to snuff his Daddy? Sure wasn’t about the dreadful threat of his nuclear anthrax invisible unicorn of death. The PNAC agenda at least supplies a sort of “rationale”, you can at least see what they _thought_ they were doing. And of course you got your signatories. Swinging dicks all, some of the biggest names in clusterfuckthink. Now, if it were only one or two, you can say coincidence. Stretch the point, three, four. But damn near all of them? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430/62 "2007-02-16T11:18:16Z")
[QUOTE=monstro] I didn’t know what PNAC was before this thread. **RedFury** , thanks for the lesson. Just wish you had provided it without all the insults. [/QUOTE] It was a bit intemperate but if someone is not aware of the PNAC and their continuing influence on and in the Gump Regime then they are not informed enough to express an opinion on Us foreign policy. It’s not conspiracy theory to point this out. This is how politics works. People have policy ideas and seek the power and influence to carry them out. Kerry had a relationship with another policy group and no doubt they would have shaped his foreign policy. Nixon had Kissinger an Carter had Brezinski (spelling) as a source of ideas and principles. The PNAC had a vision of a unipolar world in which the USA could use its unrivalled power and influence to shape the world and events to its own interest. And it sees Israel’s security as a major US interest and there are close ties between the various members of the PNAC and Israel. And there’s nothing wrong with that. It’s a perfectly legitimate policy view to have and it’s not anti-semetic or anything to either observe this close relationship or question whether the interests of the USA and Israel are always congruent. I certainly question Blair’s assumption that the interest of the the USA is always the interest of the UK. An attack on Iraq as a step towards a USA friendly Middle East was an explicit component of the PNAC foreign policy vision. Their members and allies played key roles in shaping and implementing foreign policy. Richard Perle, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Zalmay Khalilzad, Peter Rodman, John Bolton, Rumsfeld and Dov Zakheim were signatories to the PNAC [letter](http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm) to Clinton in 1998 calling for the removal of Saddam from power. > [@](#): > > We are writing you because we are convinced that current American policy toward Iraq is not succeeding, and that we may soon face a threat in the Middle East more serious than any we have known since the end of the Cold War. In your upcoming State of the Union Address, you have an opportunity to chart a clear and determined course for meeting this threat. We urge you to seize that opportunity, and to enunciate a new strategy that would secure the interests of the U.S. and our friends and allies around the world. That strategy should aim, above all, at the removal of Saddam Hussein’s regime from power. We stand ready to offer our full support in this difficult but necessary endeavor. > [@](#): > > We urge you to articulate this aim, and to turn your Administration’s attention to implementing a strategy for removing Saddam’s regime from power. This will require a full complement of diplomatic, political and military efforts. Although we are fully aware of the dangers and difficulties in implementing this policy, we believe the dangers of failing to do so are far greater. We believe the U.S. has the authority under existing UN resolutions to take the necessary steps, including military steps, to protect our vital interests in the Gulf. In any case, American policy cannot continue to be crippled by a misguided insistence on unanimity in the UN Security Council. And perhaps the most nutty of the PNAC cluster was, [Douglas Feith,](http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20070213_before_the_invasion_there_was_feith/). I have no doubt that he (and I’m certain, others) deliberately manipulated intelligence to get the preconceived outcome, war with Iraq and then onto Iran. That’s not surprising or nuttily conspiratorial - that’s just how politics works and no sphere of politics is more cynical and real politick than foriegn policy where the cynical pursuit of the national interest as defined by those in power at the time is business as usual for everyone. It’s just that in the case of the USA the consequences are writ large on the rest of the world. Just like the growing tendency of Putin to use his control of European energy sources for foreign policy ends. As the people in whose name our rulers supposedly act we have to constantly be aware of the surfboards on which our rulers ride the tide of events (more so than ever now they have another country in their sights). The PNAC is one such conveyance and it turns out a very faulty one. It’s a prime example of how ideology can blind even very smart people (not to mention Bush) to reality. This time with terrible consequences. This is just how power and politicians work. It would be hopelessly niave to believe foreign policy comes from some disinterested observation of some Absolute National Interest or that those ambitious and ruthless enough to seek and gain power don’t have their own ideological spectacles on. It would be equally niave to believe they won’t pull every trick in the book to make things turn out their way. Nixon waged a secret war in Cambodia and the Bush regime, along with Blair, set up their own operations to distort intelligence and mislead both the UK and US public and legislatures to threats that either were not there or not as imminent as made out for ‘the greater good’ as they saw it. To me that makes them dishonourable scum but I’m sure they see themselves as hard-headed realist, heroes even, doing what was necessary in the national interest. More on Feith in particular: > [@](#): > > Someday, you are going to read a whole lot about the shenanigans of one Douglas J. Feith and an elaborate scheme to get the United States to invade Iraq. That is because Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich., has been determined to get to the bottom of this sordid tale and is now, fortunately, head of the Senate Armed Services Committee and thereby empowered to get at the truth. > > Last week, his focus led to the partial declassification of a report produced by the Pentagon’s inspector general. > [@](#): > > The tale begins with Feith, who was appointed undersecretary of defense for policy in the Pentagon by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld after Bush was installed in the White House in 2000 by the Supreme Court. Feith’s office manufactured an “Alternative Analysis on the Iraq-Al Qaeda Relationship,” which iignored the consensus of the intelligence community that the two natural enemies—one a secular Arab government, the other a fundamentalist terror group bent on destruction of same—were not, nor ever had been, working together, despite a shared enmity for the United States. > > Most important, as the Pentagon’s independent inspector general noted, the intelligence did not support any connection between Saddam Hussein’s regime and the brutal Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. Nevertheless, such an apocryphal connection was asserted repeatedly by the Bush administration based largely on the cherry-picked information compiled and presented by Feith’s highly ideological group within the Pentagon. Feith is also the guy who had close ties to Iranian exiles like Chalabi, partially thru his involvement in Iran-Contra, and he was part of the conduit that allowed these exiles to mislead a willing to be misled White House into believing in the greeted with flowers cakewalk fantasy. [This article in Rolling Stone](http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/10962352/iran_the_next_war) about Feith, the PNAC, the roads to war in Iraq and Iran, and Israel is old news but still pretty interesting. And still disturbing. [Here is a reprint of an article from the Nation](http://www.commondreams.org/views07/0213-20.htm) on Feith and the Pentagon Inspector General’s report. If fool-me-once was the Bush Administration’s reams of faked intelligence about Iraq’s nonexistent weapons of mass destruction and nonexistent ties to Al Qaeda, then fool-me-twice is the Administration’s shameless effort to shift the blame for American casualties in Iraq from the Sunni-led resistance, where it belongs, to a make-believe threat from Iran and allied Shiite militias. It’s Iran in the headlines today, but happily on February 9 we got a timely reminder of how brazenly the Bush Administration–along with its neoconservative allies at The Weekly Standard and the American Enterprise Institute–trumped up the case for war against Iraq five years ago. I > [@](#): > > n a stunning indictment of the Administration’s chicanery, Pentagon Inspector General Thomas Gimble slammed the super-secret predecessor organizations to the Office of Special Plans for “disseminating alternative intelligence assessments on the Iraq and Al Qaeda relationship.” Its actions, Gimble concluded, were “inappropriate,” and its conclusions “were not supported by the available intelligence.” Among the absurdly wrong conclusions reached by the OSP and its earlier incarnations–the equally Orwellian-sounding Policy Support Office and the Policy Counter Terrorism Evaluation Group–were that a “mature symbiotic relationship” existed between Iraq and Al Qaeda and that Baghdad and Osama bin Laden’s terrorists displayed “cooperation in all categories.” Vice President Cheney used this nonsense to bolster his dark muttering about “possible Iraq coordination” with Al Qaeda in the 9/11 attacks. > > Make no mistake: The phrase “not supported by the available intelligence” is merely bureaucratese for a “lie-filled pile of crap,” and that’s the most straightforward way to describe the intelligence product produced by the OSP, which was run directly out of the office of then-Under Secretary of Defense for Policy Douglas Feith. Feith, who was called “the fucking stupidest guy on the face of the earth” by Gen. Tommy Franks, is a hard-core neoconservative with intimate ties to the Israeli far right. The Inspector General’s report chips away at merely the tip of a gigantic iceberg, a virtual empire of lies that was owned and operated by the Defense Department from 9/11 though the start of the Iraq War in March 2003. > [@](#): > > Appearing on Fox News Sunday, Feith was shockingly unrepentant, denying any and all evidence that he stacked the deck for war. It was too much even for Chris Wallace, the show’s host, who seemed incredulous that Feith would deny the obvious. (You can read the whole transcript here.) An excerpt: > > WALLACE: Okay. Let’s talk about it, because the briefing was titled “Iraq and Al Qaeda Making the Case,” and here are some of the highlights from your PowerPoint presentation. “Intelligence indicates cooperation in all categories, mature symbiotic relationship.” “Some indications of possible Iraq coordination with Al Qaeda specifically related to 9/11.” And you said an alleged meeting between 9/11 hijacker Mohammed Atta and an Iraqi agent in Prague in April 2001 was a known contact. Mr. Feith, all of that–all of that was wrong, wasn’t it? > > FEITH: No, not at all. There was substantial intelligence. I mean, evidence is a legal term not really appropriate here. There was a lot of information out there. Intelligence is very sketchy, and it’s always open to interpretation. On this issue, there were people who disagreed about the intelligence and the people in the Pentagon were giving a critical review. They were not presenting alternative conclusions. They were presenting a challenge to the way the CIA was looking at things and filtering its own information. > > WALLACE: I have to tell you, I mean, when I–I mean, I read these as “mature symbiotic relationship,” “known contact”–that sure sounds like conclusions. > [@](#): > > After Feith’s OSP concocted its cock-and-bull story about Iraq, they had the temerity to take it over to the CIA and present it to a team of professional analysts there. George Tenet, after listening politely to Feith’s team on August 15, 2002, quietly asked his staff to stick around after the OSP briefers departed. The CIA and the Defense Intelligence Agency reviewed Feith’s conclusions (apparently there were some two dozen or more pieces of “evidence”) and promptly disagreed with more than 50 percent of it, Gimble said. Five days later, they all met once again, and the CIA pointedly offered to footnote Feith’s report with strident objections of its own. Feith’s team said thanks–and then promptly set up an appointment to brief the White House, without so much as adding a single CIA footnote. Needless to say, that briefing was widely cited by President Bush, Vice President Cheney and others–and it was helpfully leaked to The Weekly Standard, which printed it nearly verbatim. Later, when asked why he kept insisting that Iraq and Al Qaeda were allies, Cheney pointed to the Weekly Standard article to support his charges! > > Bizarre as all this is, it is important to remember that because of these lies, America went to war against a country that had never attacked the United States, that had no weapons of mass destruction and that had no ties to Al Qaeda or 9/11. As a result, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis are dead, along with 3,109 Americans. Not only that, but there is every reason to believe that the Administration is once again involved in fabricating intelligence to justify its increasingly belligerent stance toward Iran. While Senator Levin keeps one eye on the Feith-Libby lies of 2003, let’s hope he and the rest of Congress keep the other on what looks like additional baloney about Iran. As President Bush himself so eloquently put it: “Fool me once, shame on–shame on you. Fool me–you can’t get fooled again.” ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430/63 "2007-02-16T11:24:49Z")
Apologies for the poor quote coding at the end. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430/64 "2007-02-16T11:42:21Z")
Feith = Likud. I sometimes wonder why it’s always me pointing this stuff out. Apology duly accepted **Tagos**. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430/65 "2007-02-16T11:54:37Z")
On review. Not me. The Rolling Stone article makes that point. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430/66 "2007-02-16T14:18:04Z")
[QUOTE=DMC] By the way, the only organization that has held that many high-ranking posts in a Democratic administration is the Democratic Party. [/QUOTE] Not exactly. In the last Democratic administration, the President, Vice President, First Lady, the head of the Democratic National Committee, the president’s Chief of Staff, and numerous other officials were all official members of the Democratic Leadership Council. Another arm of the Masons, obviously. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430/67 "2007-02-16T14:19:30Z")
Well, well,well…if nothing else we get see the remnants of the Bush/neocon apparatchik in action. Sort of rings a bell with the The Last Of The Mohicans, BTW. Although as already mentioned by others, politics is politics, and as such it remains largely bullshit of the worst kind. Any other questions directed towards me, have already been answered in full by “the patience squad.” I alluded to in a prior thread. Bless them. Or better yet to my way of thinking they desr, I wish them all the success they deserve. * * * **El\_Kabong** , I am honestly sorry to disappoint you – and some of the other other participants in this thread – but I certainly don’t fit the image of those that would smoke a peace-pipe with many ana-hole here. Hey, I might be one myself but IRL, I do as much as I am cabeable to aid those in need. And I do so without asking their life’s history first. just not into the blame-game. Shit happens. Imagine that. An agnostic/atheist, social-democrat with a conscience. _:::thud:::_ As for those that were legitimately unaware of PNAC’s influence in your foreign policies, my sincere apologies if I came off too brash. But its rather obvious we live in different planets. ---
**Author:** ![scotandrsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@scotandrsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotandrsn)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430/68 "2007-02-16T14:28:48Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Does PNAC still exist? Its [website](http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqmiddleeast.htm) doesn’t appear to have been updated since 2005. [/QUOTE] The [What’s New](http://www.newamericancentury.org/whatsnew.htm) page has articles posted as recently as this past December, although all articles posted for the past year and a half seem to be largely the work of two people. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430/69 "2007-02-16T14:38:54Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] I have a hard time understanding why anyone would not be troubled that, long before this bunch had even fielded Shrub, they had already written the blueprint for what’s going on today; they would begin by unseating Saddam and then extending ‘influence’ via Iran and Syria. Folks, this was written in the late 90s. Point is, it’s one more indication that this whole sham over ‘saving Iraqis from Saddam’ was cooked up long before any terrorist even considered flying a plane into a highrise. [/quote] Exactly. The PNAC is not troubling because it’s made of a group of guys who happen to have a whole of power. What’s troubling is evidence that our involvement in Iraq is part of a master plan conceived by the PNAC long before 911. That several top officials are members of the PNAC only goes to show the high likelihood that these ideas have been incorporated into actual policy instead of just gathering dust in a file somewhere like other think tank deliverables. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430/70 "2007-02-16T14:41:42Z")
[QUOTE=scotandrsn] The [What’s New](http://www.newamericancentury.org/whatsnew.htm) page has articles posted as recently as this past December, although all articles posted for the past year and a half seem to be largely the work of two people. [/QUOTE] There has been a whole lot of PNAC types skulking back into the woodwork with either apologetic mutters or saying in not so many words ‘its all the fault of the moron in the White House.’ The [Wiki entry](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century) suggests only two active members and a whole slew of ex-members. That splashing sound is rats. For those who still need an [easy to grasp chart](http://www.tvnewslies.org/html/pnac_neo-con_artists.html) of PNAC influence this will help. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430/71 "2007-02-16T14:50:05Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] As for those that were legitimately unaware of PNAC’s influence in your foreign policies, my sincere apologies if I came off too brash. But its rather obvious we live in different planets. [/QUOTE] You see this is my problem and where I share your frustration. If you have an interest in a subject and consider yourself able to express an opinion or comment you can’t not know about the PNAC and its influence. Its been discussed her so many times, the same points made, the same documents linked to. And I just don’t think its possible to be so naive to believe when an organisation colonises an executive so thoroughly as this one did that an agenda was not being pursued. They were completely upfront about it and continued espousing the same ‘might makes right’ (disguised as ‘making our own reality’) views and sentiments. And a lot of those people are still unrepentantly in place peddling the same dangerously pernicious nonsense, with the same sickening level of lying straight in our faces cynicism about Iran in their desire for war. [Still lying to us says former aide](http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070214/pl_nm/iran_usa_dc) > [@](#): > > Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice misled the U.S. Congress when she said last week that she had not seen a 2003 Iranian proposal for talks with the United States, a former senior government official said on Wednesday. > > Flynt Leverett, who worked on the National Security Council when it was headed by Rice, likened the proposal to the 1972 U.S. opening to China. He said he was confident it was seen by Rice and then-Secretary of State > Colin Powell but “the administration rejected the overture.” > > Speaking at a conference on Capitol Hill, Leverett said “this was a serious proposal, a serious effort” by > Iran to lay out a comprehensive agenda for U.S.-Iranian rapprochement. > > “The Bush administration up to and including Secretary Rice is misleading Congress and the American public about the Iran proposal,” he said. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430/72 "2007-02-16T15:34:28Z")
I’m another one who doesn’t see what the fuss is. We already hate these people and their foreign policy, so why do we have to hate the horse they rode in on? Seems a little superfluous. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430/73 "2007-02-16T15:59:03Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] As for those that were legitimately unaware of PNAC’s influence in your foreign policies, my sincere apologies if I came off too brash. But its rather obvious we live in different planets. [/QUOTE] Dude…get over yourself already. You act like you’re bringing enlightenment to the savages, but all you’ve actually done is rehash stale and commonly known points–ie, that think tanks exist, and some of them have stroke. That may have been exciting news back when you had hair (when was that, 1957? You look pretty old), but today, it’s somewhat less than shocking. Equally tiresome is this notion you fallback on, that anyone who disagrees with you on the tiniest of details is a kool-aid drinker brainwashed by the teh evil neocon conspiracy. You are not a deep thinker. You’re an ass clown. ---
**Author:** ![Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c4cdca/32.png) [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430/74 "2007-02-16T16:11:20Z")
[QUOTE=Oakminster] but all you’ve actually done is rehash stale and commonly known points–ie, that think tanks exist, and some of them have stroke. That may have been exciting news back when you had hair (when was that, 1957? [/QUOTE] What is your issue? I, too, sometimes lose my ability to be angry at all this through sheer burnout, but then I look at it all and am appalled all over again. I think it’s necessary to continue to reiterate these facts until someone finally gets fed up enough to make the case to remove this lot from the positions they have achieved where some of them are still trying to carry out this disastrous and stupid plan. It’s a pity you don’t get it. Sad when people let personal antipathies get in the way of seeing reason, innit? ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430/75 "2007-02-16T16:40:21Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] Sad when people let personal antipathies get in the way of seeing reason, innit? [/QUOTE] That ain’t the point. Here’s a stunning revelation–I actually agree with both you and the OP that the current administration’s policy in Iraq is wrong. I’ve repeatedly posted that we never should have invaded Iraq. We should not invade Iran. The point here is that this think tank is not some shocking conspiracy. It’s not illegal to form a think tank, or to advocate that the government adopt policy favorable to the think tank’s agenda. It’s not even illegal to advocate that the government adopt/continue policies that other people consider really bad ideas. The OP acts likes he alone has found the Holy Grail of Enlightenment. That gets annoying. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430/76 "2007-02-16T16:51:17Z")
But it starts becoming a conspiracy when these same people take a terrible tragedy and use it as an excuse to carry out a predetermined agenda of the organisation, based on outrageous bad judgements, deliberate lies and distortions of intelligence. It’s not helped when people like Feith turn out to be traitors aiding a foreign power. And they are still there, they are still trying to pull the same trick. That’s why the PNAC isn’t just another nothing-to-see-here think-tank. They have a proven track record of pursuing an agenda that has killed untold thousands and until they are hounded from office like Rumsfeld, and where necessary, put behind bars which is where Feith should be, we are right to keep the spotlight on them. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430/77 "2007-02-16T17:02:16Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] I think it’s necessary to continue to reiterate these facts until someone finally gets fed up enough to make the case to remove this lot from the positions they have achieved where some of them are still trying to carry out this disastrous and stupid plan. [/QUOTE] Unless you’re talking about impeachment (a process that would, at this point, likely take longer to accomplish than the remainder of Bush’s presidency) or lying in wait in the window of a book depository, many of us are already doing what we can to remove these people from their positions—at least the elected ones—by attempting to vote them out of office. In an earlier post I asked a question that went unanswered: what else do you expect us to do? The problem with **RedFury** (at least from my point of view, which I suspect others here share) is not his presentation of facts, but the way he does so: a combination of Moses descended from the mount with the sacred tablets, and the hectoring, patronizing manner of a grammar school teacher deigning to address his runny-nosed brood. Throw in some (apparently frequently alcohol-fueled) chest-butting _machismo_ and a level of arrogance that is wildly out of sync with either the novelty of his arguments or their intellectual heft, and you have the equivalent of an important matter of state being announced by a tipsy, belligerent, preening court jester. If he were really interested in changing minds, and not simply bombast and provocation, he’d do well to invest in a different style of delivery for his message. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430/78 "2007-02-16T17:08:47Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] I’d appreciate it if you wouldn’t speak for me. Nor attribute things to me that I never said and/or wrote. [/quote] I wouldn’t dream of it, and I defy you to find any place where I ever have. BUT I will interpret your posts to mean what they honestly seem to me to mean, and I reserve the right to paraphrase your point, as I understand it. If I have misinterpreted you, feel free to correct me. But the only time I will attribute to you, or have attributed to you, any particular words are when I am quoting you directly. > [@](#): > > There’s no “A-HA!” moment with regards to the PNAC’s power grab at the WH. That’s really old news. The only “A-HA” moment has to do with how many of you right-wingers prefer to choose ignorance over reality. Ignorance of what? That PNAC exists? That it existed prior to 9/11? So what? You don’t have to be a “right winger” to not see what the point is. As **Sal Ammoniac** said: > [@](#): > > I’m another one who doesn’t see what the fuss is. We already hate these people and their foreign policy, so why do we have to hate the horse they rode in on? Seems a little superfluous. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430/79 "2007-02-16T17:19:55Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] It’s not helped when people like Feith turn out to be traitors aiding a foreign power. [/QUOTE] Say, I’d forgotten the AIPAC trial. It’s moving forward nicely: [June 4 date set for AIPAC staffers case](http://jta.org/page_view_breaking_story.asp?intid=6605) [Defendants Are Dealt a Blow In Aipac Case](http://www.nysun.com/article/48850) ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2007, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430/80 "2007-02-16T17:28:10Z")
Look, I gotta ask. This idea, “They were planning to oust Saddam in the 90s!” is pretty lame. Of COURSE they were planning to oust Saddam in the 90s, you dolts! Everyone on the planet wanted to oust Saddam, since the first Gulf War. Saddam has been on the official hit list ever since he invaded Kuwait. Sure, Jim Baker the dictator-lover talked Bush the Elder out of continuing to Baghdad (something about stability). But the notion that leaving Saddam in power was a mistake was a very common one. On both the left and right. Regime change was the official policy of the US goverment…the only question was whether an invasion to oust Saddam would be more dangerous than the low level war, sanctions, and so forth we had between Gulf War I and Gulf War II. So, where does that leave us? That Bush and everyone in his administration were looking for ways to oust Saddam since the mid 90s? This is the shocking revelation? Except up until 9/11 a massive foreign military adventure would have been politically impossible, even to achieve the uncontroversial goal of ousting the dictator of Iraq? And that after 9/11 the American voters were up for kicking a little Arab ass, nevermind whose? And that the WMD crisis was about finding a politically palatable causus belli? Of course, the Bush Administration figured that kicking Saddam around would show the Middle East the power of the American military, and show them that we could, if we wanted to, topple any government and rearrange things to our own liking, so perhaps they better smarten up and fall in line. Turns out he proved just the opposite. Who knew? :rolleyes: I’m still kicking myself for voting for him in 2000. So…that said…what exactly was this thread supposed to prove again? That Republican/conservative bigwigs wanted to oust Saddam…before 9/11? Get out! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-many-of-you-dolts-dont-know-about-the-pnac/392430.md?page=5)