# So how(much) profit do vaccine makers really make? \[Edited title\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 15, 2011, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-much-profit-do-vaccine-makers-really-make-edited-title/592739 "2011-08-15T00:41:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-much-profit-do-vaccine-makers-really-make-edited-title/592739/21 "2011-08-15T20:02:41Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > I’m wondering what we can do to help ease people’s fears and up vaccine rates. The profit argument comes up again and again. I think a big chunk of the fence sitters could be persuaded with the right stats. I think you should ask them how much they, personally, have been asked to pay for their children’s vaccines. My guess, since insurance covers well-child visits, including vaccinations, and uninsured children can get vaccines for free, is pretty close to $0. Vaccines may cost our \*government _quite a bit of money because they pay for these programs_, but the routine childhood vaccines generally cost the public nothing, or very close to it, even in our screwed up health care system. \*So, really, anyone clinging to this objection is pretty much by definition into Conspiracy Theory territory, and impenetrable to logic. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-much-profit-do-vaccine-makers-really-make-edited-title/592739/22 "2011-08-15T20:20:39Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Vaccines may cost our \*government _quite a bit of money because they pay for these programs_, but the routine childhood vaccines generally cost the public nothing, or very close to it, even in our screwed up health care system. Are you aware that the government gets its funding from the public? > [@](#): > > \*So, really, anyone clinging to this objection is pretty much by definition into Conspiracy Theory territory, and impenetrable to logic. The conspiracy theory was about who receives the money, not about what pocket it comes out of. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-much-profit-do-vaccine-makers-really-make-edited-title/592739/23 "2011-08-15T21:26:04Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > The profit argument comes up again and again. I think a big chunk of the fence sitters could be persuaded with the right stats. They’d just argue that the stats were faked and change the subject to the TOXINS they claim vaccines are full of, the need to subject children to an unvaccinated vs. vaccinated mass study, the “truth” about how vaccines haven’t prevented disease, etc. etc. ad nauseum. I applaud your trying to find hard figures on current vaccine manufacturing costs and profits, but I don’t think you’re going to be able to get those figures in the first place, and even if you could it’s not going to take into account everything the vaccine manufacturers have spent to research and test the vaccines, the amount of dough they need to hold in reserve to defend vaccine lawsuits and potentially pay damages if they lose, and so on. My chief answer to the “Vaccines are hugely profitable” argument\* remains: if it’s such a cash cow, how come so few companies have stayed in the vaccine business? \*Secondarily, it is worthwhile asking if it is so intrinsically awful to make money from something that has been so valuable in protecting our health, as opposed to profits made by other businesses selling all sorts of glop that we could all happily live without. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-much-profit-do-vaccine-makers-really-make-edited-title/592739/24 "2011-08-15T22:30:29Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > I’m wondering what we can do to help ease people’s fears and up vaccine rates. The profit argument comes up again and again. I think a big chunk of the fence sitters could be persuaded with the right stats. Obviously, they are believers because nobody ever has given them the facts. You will be the first to charge their defenses. Look, you are fighting the good fight. We all support you. But you’re talking about people who have deliberately chosen to ignore all the facts on the subject. It’s not because they have never heard the facts. They’ve been given the facts and they still deny them. There are lots of studies today that show that the more facts conspiracy believers are given, the firmer they cling to their alternate realities, because the price to their esteem that they have been so loudly wrong all this time is too great to bear. And you will never get this particular fact, only circumstantial evidence that it must be true. How is that going to go over? ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-much-profit-do-vaccine-makers-really-make-edited-title/592739/25 "2011-08-15T22:39:50Z")
In a few years, all the children who developed disabilities or died from measles, and other easily vaccinatable diseases can sue everyone who ever published the crap that caused thier disease, and all the lawyers who profited by it. Not that that will work, either, but it does have a poetic sense of justice to it. Tris ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-much-profit-do-vaccine-makers-really-make-edited-title/592739/26 "2011-08-15T23:02:26Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Best of luck getting any company to provide exact information on what its costs and markup are for a particular product. > > As regards vaccines supposedly being a big profit center for drug companies as antivaxers would have you believe, the reality is that vaccine revenue is a small part of the overall drug company bottom line, and few companies these days make vaccines - the number of firms producing them has declined from 26 in 1967 to only 5 as of 2004 (this contributes to periodic vaccine shortages - when production problems occur, there may not be sufficient capacity elsewhere to meet the demand, as was the case a few years ago when influenza vaccine shortages developed due to problems in an overseas plant). > > Reasons for companies getting out of the vaccine business include the limited market for vaccines compared to drugs that are taken for many years, competition for resources used in drug development, industry mergers, a great reduction in the private vaccine market (government is by far the biggest purchaser of vaccines, and federal price caps limit payments; insurance company reimbursements to physicians for buying vaccines are only slightly above costs), and the higher development and production costs for vaccines as opposed to drugs (vaccines are held to a higher standard): > > _“…the current culture does not allow for any serious side effects from a vaccine. As a consequence, pharmaceutical companies are now asked to disprove even very rare adverse effects prior to licensure. Two companies, Merck and GlaxoSmithKline, are now testing rotavirus vaccines in pre-licensure trials that include more than 140,000 children. The cost of these two large trials is about $400 million. The added financial burden of now disproving rare adverse events before licensure is another disincentive to making vaccines.”_ > > And finally of course there are product liability issues (fear of lawsuits, higher liability insurance costs). Vaccine makers began leaving the market after the mid-70s, when a British researcher published an ultimately disproved claim that the pertussis vaccine caused brain injury and other serious problems (hmm, does this sound familiar, Wakefield fans?). Even with the federal government stepping in to compensate people for findings of injury via a “vaccine court”, liability issues remain. > > \*"Unfortunately, three important weaknesses in the NVICP (vaccine injury compensation program) discourage vaccine makers. First, if dissatisfied with the outcome, people can always opt out of the NVICP and take their case to a jury. Parents claiming that their children were harmed by thimerosal (an ethylmercury-containing preservative in some vaccines) have sued vaccine makers; about 300 separate lawsuits are now pending in U.S. courts. Although four large epidemiologic studies found that children receiving thimerosal-containing vaccines were not at increased risk for the neurological problems claimed, plaintiffs’ lawyers are pressuring pharmaceutical companies for a large settlement.[22] > > Second, the NVICP does not cover all vaccines, only those routinely recommended for all children…Third, the NVICP does not include the unborn child when the mother is immunized. For example, very young infants are occasionally infected by a bacterium called group B streptococcus (GBS). GBS infects the bloodstream, the brain, and the spinal cord. Every year, about 2,000 U.S. babies are infected with GBS and 100 die; more newborns die from GBS than any other infectious disease. Unfortunately, most vaccines in the United States and the world are not given until one or two months of age—too late to prevent GBS infections. Therefore, the most effective strategy to prevent GBS would be to immunize pregnant women. Researchers have already shown that a GBS vaccine given to pregnant women would work to protect newborns.[24] However, because of concerns about litigation following immunization of pregnant women, no pharmaceutical company is willing to make a GBS vaccine or any vaccine that would include maternal immunization."\* > > (the above quotes are from a Medscape article I can’t link to directly - try Googling “are fewer companies making vaccines now”). Thank you. I think I found the entire article online here: [http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/24/3/622.full](http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/24/3/622.full) ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-much-profit-do-vaccine-makers-really-make-edited-title/592739/27 "2011-08-15T23:28:23Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Unfortunately it isn’t just a handful of nuts. > > Some of the anti-vax numbers are kind of scary: > > I’m wondering what we can do to help ease people’s fears and up vaccine rates. The profit argument comes up again and again. I think a big chunk of the fence sitters could be persuaded with the right stats. While you know I applaud your efforts to combat the anti-vax nutters, I must point out that this figure does exaggerate the issue some: that 68.5% NJ number represents those _fully_ vaccinated. It does not mean that 31.5% of parents are refusing vaccines. Certainly some small portion of those numbers are from those families, but much of the failure is our system is failing to achieve the goal with parents who do intent to vaccinate but who are not geting some. The refusers and intentional delays/novel schedulers are a worth attempting to educate and debunk, but we can’t blame them completely for our failure to meet the 90% goals. You can dig through some numbers [here](http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5936a2.htm?s_cid=mm5936a2_w). Scroll down for a state by state and by vaccine charts for 2009 anyway. The biggest fail for meeting that complete series is missing the last DTaP dose. I have no hard cite about how profitable the immunization business is or is not but I am quite sure that it does not meet the level they are looking for with their other investments. Big Pharma really is not too interested in even modestly good profit margin from a product that has two or three or even five doses; they want the “lifestyle” meds. The big money is in a medication someone takes every day: a new Lipitor, or a new Prozac, a better antihypertensive. Or alternatively something so special they can charge thousands a dose. Vaccines don’t measure up on that scale. But again, I’ve got no hard cite. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2011, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-much-profit-do-vaccine-makers-really-make-edited-title/592739/28 "2011-08-15T23:45:18Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > While you know I applaud your efforts to combat the anti-vax nutters, I must point out that this figure does exaggerate the issue some: that 68.5% NJ number represents those _fully_ vaccinated. It does not mean that 31.5% of parents are refusing vaccines. Certainly some small portion of those numbers are from those families, but much of the failure is our system is failing to achieve the goal with parents who do intent to vaccinate but who are not geting some. > > The refusers and intentional delays/novel schedulers are a worth attempting to educate and debunk, but we can’t blame them completely for our failure to meet the 90% goals. > > You can dig through some numbers [here](http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5936a2.htm?s_cid=mm5936a2_w). Scroll down for a state by state and by vaccine charts for 2009 anyway. The biggest fail for meeting that complete series is missing the last DTaP dose. Thank you. That’s a very good point. Unfortunately New Jersey has a very vocal anti-vax lobby. One of [their idiot leaders](http://americanloons.blogspot.com/2011/03/163-louise-kuo-habakus.html) claims to have the governor’s ear. She and her organization are actively engaged in a campaign of misinformation and lies on this subject. I know. I took out her awful book from my local public library. > [@](#): > > I have no hard cite about how profitable the immunization business is or is not but I am quite sure that it does not meet the level they are looking for with their other investments. Big Pharma really is not too interested in even modestly good profit margin from a product that has two or three or even five doses; they want the “lifestyle” meds. The big money is in a medication someone takes every day: a new Lipitor, or a new Prozac, a better antihypertensive. Or alternatively something so special they can charge thousands a dose. Vaccines don’t measure up on that scale. But again, I’ve got no hard cite. The article I found by Dr. Offit makes that point very clear. I figure it can’t hurt to pass it along the next time someone posts some idiocy on the parenting message boards I like to frequent. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-much-profit-do-vaccine-makers-really-make-edited-title/592739/29 "2011-08-16T00:15:10Z")
Here’s another way to go at it. [This is a list of vaccine prices](http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/programs/vfc/cdc-vac-price-list.htm) according to the CDC, both public and private pricing. _All four_ under 2 year old Pentacels are just over $200 at the CDC’s cost, the MMR is $18. The complete HepB series about $30. Varivax and Prevnar are the only pricey ones at $70 and 97 each. Yeah we in the private sector pay more, have another level of middlemen who get their cut, but still, this is chickenfeed for Pharma even assuming the same mark up as other meds. To imagine a conspiracy to keep getting their profit off of an $18 per kid MMR, when the average wholesale price [of Lipitor](http://pharmacybenefitconsultants.com/industry-news/brand-cholesterol-drug-costs-soaring/) is over $4 _a pill_ (!) takes a heck of a lot of imagination. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-much-profit-do-vaccine-makers-really-make-edited-title/592739/30 "2011-08-16T20:31:36Z")
> [@minor7flat5](#): > > Just a data point about pharmaceutical R&D costs… > > Several years ago I attended a pharma conference where some top dog from the FDA gave the keynote speech—I remember very little except for one thing: He said that the average cost for a new drug (at the time) was $800 million. > > That’s because the new drug has to pay for fourteen years of research and development as well as all of the stillborn products that, for example, were canned because of safety issues or efficacy issues early on. > > Vaccines are a different beast from small molecules, but they still follow the general drug pipeline. > > I don’t know what the cost is today, but it probably didn’t go down. I know as a guinea pig for whatever new flu vaccination is planned for that year I get the shot [or a placebo] and $75 for getting a shot, keeping 4 weeks of diary and going back for a final checkup. [heckfire, I just made $300 for taking a combination of 2 naproxen with benedryl as a proposed OTC pain/sleep aid every night for 4 weeks, and keeping the diary. Medical guinea pigging can be fairly profitable as a hobby] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-much-profit-do-vaccine-makers-really-make-edited-title/592739.md?page=1)