# So, how should I react to the presence of slaves in my city? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 22, 2013, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-should-i-react-to-the-presence-of-slaves-in-my-city/651063 "2013-02-22T07:21:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-should-i-react-to-the-presence-of-slaves-in-my-city/651063/41 "2013-02-22T21:20:52Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > You could almost double your pay by cutting the Cable :dubious: Not really. I pay about a third of the cable bill, and that’s because I want the internet access. We get cable T.V. more for my roommate and her kids (the kids really), I’d happily drop the cable T.V. So, even without the cable bill, I’ve got about the same amount of discretionary income as working prisoners (this is assuming **Try2B Comprehensive** ’s $1/hr estimate is correct, but discounting the probability that they don’t work 40 hours a week). ---
**Author:** ![Dogzilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@Dogzilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogzilla)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-should-i-react-to-the-presence-of-slaves-in-my-city/651063/42 "2013-02-22T21:26:51Z")
I get a little skeeved out when I see the prison crews working the grounds of an elementary school. :eek: Then my brain takes over and I remind myself: •They are working at the school when school is not in session; there are no children around. It’s usually a weekend. •There are guards standing around to make sure nobody runs off. •The only difference between those guys and me is I haven’t been arrested for and convicted of my crimes. They got caught. From a certain point of view, we’re all criminals, unless someone here always drives exactly the speed limit. Most of us break little laws all the time. To the OP: I don’t think it’s slavery if you get paid. These guys get paid (a tiny bit) and earn good behavior time, possibly some work skills, and probably get a sense of normalcy for a little while. Like the prisoners who tarred the roof in Shawshank Redemption talking about feeling normal because Andy Dufresne got them some cold beers after a hard day’s work. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-should-i-react-to-the-presence-of-slaves-in-my-city/651063/43 "2013-02-22T21:30:24Z")
> [@FrankJBN](#): > > Kenobi says: “Frank, seriously, please learn how to use the quote function here on these boards” > > What the aboves means is that I am quoting what Kenobi said, if anyone doesn’t realize it. It works well enough when you do it that way. I’ve seen several of your posts where you don’t reference the person you’re quoting (or, where, you quote multiple people, or quote someone’s reply to someone else), and that becomes confusing to read. > [@FrankJBN](#): > > Oh and in the case you are complaining about, I was responding to one post up - internet era attention span anyone? Save for the fact that, during the time you were composing that response, another post was made on this thread…so, by the time you posted it, it was not, in fact, “responding to one post up”. (I am, truly, trying to be helpful. Yes, I’m not the only one who’s been mentioning this to you. The Quote tool is there for a reason, and the SDMB, like any community, has a set of norms that have grown with the community.) [end hijack] ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-should-i-react-to-the-presence-of-slaves-in-my-city/651063/44 "2013-02-22T21:47:59Z")
I don’t like prison labor. In this case, I think labor should be done by enterprising businesses OR we pay prisoners the minimum wage. I get the effect, both physical and psychological, of making prisoners work instead of sitting around all day, but I don’t like using their wages or cutting them so the state can fund itself. Incarceration is something we have to do, something the state is obligated to do. We should not exploit people to pay for it. If the state cannot pay for prisons without charging prisoners $4.99 out of their $5 salary, then they shouldn’t be locking so many people up ---
**Author:** ![manila](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@manila](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manila)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-should-i-react-to-the-presence-of-slaves-in-my-city/651063/45 "2013-02-22T22:48:55Z")
Are we talking chain gangs here? ( in fact do they even exist outside of my imagination and reruns of Cool Hand Luke?) ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-should-i-react-to-the-presence-of-slaves-in-my-city/651063/46 "2013-02-22T23:20:47Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > Up until as recently as 1996, “fallen” girls in Ireland were held as slaves and suffered in the [Magdalene Asylums](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_Asylum), big industrial laundry institutes exploited by the Catholic Church. > > It was in the news today that the Irish Government finally has offered apologies to the girls held as slaves there. Exploited by big business and the government too. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-should-i-react-to-the-presence-of-slaves-in-my-city/651063/47 "2013-02-22T23:40:04Z")
I wonder how the OP feels about community service being given as a sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2013, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-should-i-react-to-the-presence-of-slaves-in-my-city/651063/48 "2013-02-22T23:51:17Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Help me sort this out. No thanks. If you have a claim to make, then make it, and actually make an argument in support of that claim, and we can talk about the merits of that argument. As it is, you are just blathering on in the general direction of “prison nation” and other lunacy. I’ll leave you to it if that is all you are capable of doing. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-should-i-react-to-the-presence-of-slaves-in-my-city/651063/49 "2013-02-23T04:28:51Z")
[QUOTE=Peremensoe;] The problem in this thread is that some people are trying to argue that prison laborers are really not anything _like_ slaves–people want to believe that the decision is ‘voluntary,’ that offering it demonstrates our ‘humanity.’ Hogwash. Captive labor is an exploited resource, and a tool of inmate management. Don’t fool yourself by prettying it up. [/QUOTE] Well prison work has always been intended to serve a reformatory purpose as well as offset the cost of incarceration. Those ideas are as old as the Anerican state, and ate very closely entwined with the American prison system. The average pay is under $2/hr (somehow I think it’s 1.13); however if prisoners make products that move in interstate commerce, they have to paid the same wage as a free worker at the same task. There are a number of certified programs across the country. So prisoner pay actually varies quite a bit. Prisoners can work in services without triggering this rule; the Federal prison system promotes itself as an alternative to off shoring for customer service contracting. Native Englush speakers at Mumbai prices! BTW, in the south they have a saying “bad boys make good roads.” ---
**Author:** ![Glazer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a88e57/32.png) [@Glazer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glazer)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-should-i-react-to-the-presence-of-slaves-in-my-city/651063/50 "2013-02-23T06:00:38Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > Native Englush speakers at Mumbai prices! Are you sure about that? ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-should-i-react-to-the-presence-of-slaves-in-my-city/651063/51 "2013-02-23T06:18:14Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > No thanks. > > If you have a claim to make, then make it, and actually make an argument in support of that claim, and we can talk about the merits of that argument. As it is, you are just blathering on in the general direction of “prison nation” and other lunacy. > > I’ll leave you to it if that is all you are capable of doing. Well, consider [this](https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/displayArticle.aspx?articleid=24334&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1): > [@](#): > > The expansion of prison labor comes with an incentive for the prisoner workers and benefits for taxpayers. In August 2011, judges in Brown County, Wisconsin signed off on a deal to reduce a prisoner’s sentence by one day for each 24 hours worked. Every day shaved off a sentence saves the county $67 in incarceration costs. Do not prison labor and profit motive intersect? ---
**Author:** ![madrabbitwoman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c37758/32.png) [@madrabbitwoman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madrabbitwoman)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-should-i-react-to-the-presence-of-slaves-in-my-city/651063/52 "2013-02-23T09:39:15Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > Up until as recently as 1996, “fallen” girls in Ireland were held as slaves and suffered in the [Magdalene Asylums](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_Asylum), big industrial laundry institutes exploited by the Catholic Church. > > It was in the news today that the Irish Government finally has offered apologies to the girls held as slaves there. I have a feeling that something similar happened in Australia too for a while ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-should-i-react-to-the-presence-of-slaves-in-my-city/651063/53 "2013-02-23T16:25:55Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I don’t like prison labor. In this case, I think labor should be done by enterprising businesses OR we pay prisoners the minimum wage. I get the effect, both physical and psychological, of making prisoners work instead of sitting around all day, but I don’t like using their wages or cutting them so the state can fund itself. Incarceration is something we have to do, something the state is obligated to do. We should not exploit people to pay for it. If the state cannot pay for prisons without charging prisoners $4.99 out of their $5 salary, then they shouldn’t be locking so many people up As a taxpayer I have a little different take. I would rather that the larger portion of my taxes go to infrastructure, schools, housing - all things that law-abiding citizens can benefit from. How do you see it as “exploitation” to expect lawbreakers to pay part of the cost of their care which was the result of their poor citizenship? Isn’t it human nature that all of us do what we can to support ourselves? Why should prisoners be exempt from this natural effect? And, as you note, it is much more healthy for them than brooding in a cell. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-should-i-react-to-the-presence-of-slaves-in-my-city/651063/54 "2013-02-23T17:00:48Z")
I put the thread in IMHO because I am unsure of where to stand on the question. I have uneasy feelings and ethical questions, but not a conclusion on where to stand on the issue. I’m worried about the downsides of prison labor. In the case of the crew I saw shoveling snow downtown, why there used to be a a smaller crew of city workers running sweepers to do that job. I guess they are out of a job now that prisoners are doing the work. Is prison labor being used as part of the right’s campaign to destroy unions, and also to fund tax breaks for the wealthy by switching to slave labor? From the same [article](https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/displayArticle.aspx?articleid=24334&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1): > [@](#): > > The increase in the use of prison labor in Wisconsin came after Governor Scott Walker signed legislation that gutted collective bargaining rights for public employees and allowed the use of non-union workers. > > Soon after the law was enacted in June 2011, Racine County announced that it would have prisoners add shoveling, painting and landscaping to their job duties. As in Brown County, prisoners will receive time off their sentences in lieu of pay. Previously, public employees or contractors performed such work The system seems like it could be abused > [@](#): > > At least one Georgia organization questioned the use of prison labor where “the prisoners come from a private prison, such as the one CCA (Corrections Corporation of America) and the Valdosta-Lowndes County Industrial Authority want to build in Lowndes County.” Prisoner workers receive a small portion of their wages and the remainder goes to cover the cost of their incarceration. For public prisons such funds go to the state treasury, but for a private prison it results in “[y]our tax dollars profiting a private corporation for slave labor,” according to a blog entry on the website of the Lowndes Area Knowledge Exchange. Here’s an anecdote that combines prison labor with one answer to the question of what prisoners are paid: > [@](#): > > To assure it could bring in its apples, the McDougall & Sons Orchard in Grant County agreed to pay $22 an hour for prison labor from the Olympic Corrections Center. Most of those wages went to the state; prisoners received minimum wage less deductions for incarceration costs, restitution, victim compensation, child support and other financial obligations. The prisoners’ net pay was between $1.00 and $2.00 an hour. > > For the first several days, 105 prisoner workers were housed in tents. “We took field kitchens and port-a-potties over there,” said Danielle Wiles, assistant director of Washington state’s Correctional Industries. She noted that five hours into the workday, one prisoner had picked four apple bins while many had filled only one. An experienced picker can pick up to ten bins a day. > > An outcry ensued when the prisoners’ $22-per-hour wage rate was publicized, since the apple growers had offered to pay much less to freeworld employees. “It’s really hard work and this isn’t right for the inmates to be paid $22 an hour and we’re not even going on breaks,” said farm worker Jose Patino, who said McDougall & Sons refused to pay him and his wife more than minimum wage. > > The Washington Department of Corrections claimed prisoners did not take jobs away from freeworld workers, as there was a labor shortage. “They were desperate to get the crop off before it gets too cold,” said Wiles. [UNICOR](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Prison_Industries) is an interesting organization: > [@](#): > > n fiscal year 2008, UNICOR employed 21,836 inmates: 17% of eligible inmates held in federal prisons. The company generated US$765 million in sales. Of these revenues, 74% went toward the purchase of raw material and equipment; 20% went to staff salaries; 6% went to inmate salaries. > [@](#): > > under US laws and regulations, federal agencies, with the exception of the Department of Defense, are required to purchase products (but not services) offered by UNICOR, unless authorized by UNICOR to solicit bids from the private sector… In 2003, UNICOR’s board of directors eliminated the mandatory source clause for federal purchases under US$2,500, and mandated itself to approve waivers in all cases where the private sector provides a lower cost. > [@](#): > > Under current law, all physically able inmates who are not a security risk or have a health exception are required to work, either for UNICOR or at some other prison job. Inmates earn from US$0.23 per hour up to a maximum of US$1.15 per hour, and all inmates with court-ordered financial obligations must use at least 50% of this UNICOR income to satisfy those debts. It is easy to believe that prison labor (is it fair to label it ‘slave labor’?) is taking jobs away from free people, whether for political or profit reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-should-i-react-to-the-presence-of-slaves-in-my-city/651063/55 "2013-02-23T17:00:49Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > The unchanged, deliberately awful incarcerated situation is the punishment, of course. > > In many minds, that’s the whole point of the system. Unfortunately, it should be about rehabilitation not about punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-should-i-react-to-the-presence-of-slaves-in-my-city/651063/56 "2013-02-23T17:20:23Z")
One of the problems is that nobody has developed a reliable method of rehabilitating sociopaths. Time out is what works best. If the affliction is not too intractable it will fade some with age and time. Sociopaths take a very long time to learn the law of cause and effect. Not that everyone who is incarcerated is a sociopath. But the recidivists generally are. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-should-i-react-to-the-presence-of-slaves-in-my-city/651063/57 "2013-02-23T17:44:27Z")
> [@Glazer](#): > > Are you sure about that? LOL. Comes of posting from my phone. But in case anyone’s curious: [http://www.unicor.gov/services/contact\_helpdesk/index.cfm](http://www.unicor.gov/services/contact_helpdesk/index.cfm) ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-should-i-react-to-the-presence-of-slaves-in-my-city/651063/58 "2013-02-23T18:22:04Z")
> [@Tethered\_Kite](#): > > Not that everyone who is incarcerated is a sociopath. But the recidivists generally are. Untrue. While psychopaths (aka sociopaths) are much more common in prison than in the general population (20% of inmates overall), they make up at most only 30-35% of the re-offending population. ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-should-i-react-to-the-presence-of-slaves-in-my-city/651063/59 "2013-02-23T19:13:22Z")
According to studies I’ve ready a history of antisocial behaviors is one of the strongest predictors for recidivism. Perhaps it’s more accurate to say recidivists are more apt to be personality disordered? Your figure is definitely low. Are you including Antisocial Personality Disorder in your definition of Sociopath/Psychopath? Because that would be important. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2013, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-should-i-react-to-the-presence-of-slaves-in-my-city/651063/60 "2013-02-23T19:17:36Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Unfortunately, it should be about rehabilitation not about punishment. I believe it’s supposed to be both, not to mention protection for the rest of us. Like it or not, some people do deserve to be in prison, and I don’t feel the least bit sorry for them. I’m not one of those, “lock 'em up, let 'em fry!” types, but there some people really have earned their sentences. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-should-i-react-to-the-presence-of-slaves-in-my-city/651063.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-how-should-i-react-to-the-presence-of-slaves-in-my-city/651063.md?page=4)