# So I finally got around to watching Star Wars... I regret that decision. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 19, 2011, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-got-around-to-watching-star-wars-i-regret-that-decision/593292 "2011-08-19T06:54:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2011, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-got-around-to-watching-star-wars-i-regret-that-decision/593292/141 "2011-08-21T09:15:39Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Oh, sure. The _movie_ would look and be perceived very differently. But the _story_ would be pretty much the same. The characters would barely have to change at all. > > Anyway, **Bosstone** covered it pretty well. > > Well, _my_ definition of “hard” science fiction specifically excludes this; a critical element of the _story_ turns on an element of real or plausibly speculative science. > > Going by the “Mohs” scale cited above, I don’t see movies in the 1-2 range as “science” fiction at all. > > I say this by way of clarification, not to make an argument of it. I don’t actually care if you think of space opera as science fiction; I just find that _ **I** _ like _both_ more when I keep them distinct on these terms. Well, none of the characters except the droids, who are major characters and have no equivalents in fantasy. Many of the action sequences would have to be totally different. The settings would have to be changed - and the visuals are part of a movie (we are talking about a movie, not an abstract story with no medium). When you start thinking about it, it’s actually surprising how much would have to be changed. I mean, if you boil it down to ‘boy is guided by wizard, saves girl,’ etc, then you can make the same story, but that’s like saying King Arthur is exactly the same story. Which some people do, because apparently only the core elements count, not the details, even though they’re generally the most interesting bits. Let’s just agree to disagree about the definitions of space opera and science fiction. The point was that SW may not be hard SF, but it has enough tropes in common that it appeals to SF fans more than others (and definitely to fantasy fans). Ergo someone who rarely likes SF is less likely to like SW. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2011, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-got-around-to-watching-star-wars-i-regret-that-decision/593292/142 "2011-08-21T09:21:24Z")
> [@Lancia](#): > > My god. I forgot about football… you’re right, I think that is worse! > > Although, painting yourself and hollering like a lunatic at a bunch of football players might, just maybe help their team win the game. Cause and effect, etc. Lots of people do this in their own homes or in bars. I don’t think the players can hear them. ---
**Author:** ![Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/intergalactic_gladiator/32/112_2.png) [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intergalactic_Gladiator)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-got-around-to-watching-star-wars-i-regret-that-decision/593292/143 "2011-08-21T18:27:18Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > There’s nothing, absolutely nothing scientifical about Star Wars. Lasers don’t work that way ! Lightsabers just don’t ! Hyperspace ? Mono-climatic planets ? The \*Force \*? Nah man, it’s straight up fantasy IN SPACE! There’s even a troll (except it’s a Rancor) and a dragon (except it’s a space slug. And while we’re on the subject, WTF is a space slug ?! What does it eat, exactly ?) It eats wizards. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2011, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-got-around-to-watching-star-wars-i-regret-that-decision/593292/144 "2011-08-21T23:07:07Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Well, none of the characters except the droids, who are major characters and have no equivalents in fantasy. [Sure](http://www.eaudrey.com/myth/images/Golem.jpg) [they](http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/eb_gallery/82093.jpg) [do.](http://www.pollsb.com/photos/o/32737-tin_man.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-got-around-to-watching-star-wars-i-regret-that-decision/593292/145 "2011-08-22T00:57:55Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Well, none of the characters except the droids, who are major characters and have no equivalents in fantasy. [Tahei and Matakishi](http://www.abc.net.au/thingo/img/ep31/kurosawa01.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Jinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Jinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jinx)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-got-around-to-watching-star-wars-i-regret-that-decision/593292/146 "2011-08-22T01:42:27Z")
I kept waiting for the whores. Where’s the Star Whores??? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-got-around-to-watching-star-wars-i-regret-that-decision/593292/147 "2011-08-22T02:56:53Z")
> [@Jinx](#): > > I kept waiting for the whores. Where’s the Star Whores??? 😉 Well Vivid is supposed to be coming out with a parody. Declan ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-got-around-to-watching-star-wars-i-regret-that-decision/593292/148 "2011-08-22T03:06:54Z")
Those characters are barely like C3P0 and R2D2 at all. The two of them being able to connect with electronics is also a major feature of their function in the storyline. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-got-around-to-watching-star-wars-i-regret-that-decision/593292/149 "2011-08-22T04:14:37Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Those characters are barely like C3P0 and R2D2 at all. The two of them being able to connect with electronics is also a major feature of their function in the storyline. Are you talking about Tahei and Matakishi? Because Lucas has said he based R2D2 and C3PO on them. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-got-around-to-watching-star-wars-i-regret-that-decision/593292/150 "2011-08-22T07:25:59Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Are you talking about Tahei and Matakishi? Because Lucas has said he based R2D2 and C3PO on them. Them and the others, yeah. Regardless of who Threepio and Artoo were based on, in the movies they’re too decisively robots - too many of their actions require them to interact with computers in one way or another. If, say, you made the crusher non-electronic I guess you could have an Artoo golem use physical force to stop it, but then you’d have to have a massively strong Artoo, which is hardly similar to his character in SW. Or he could have the magic ability to interact with metal, maybe, but that would make him like a superhero, way more skilled and impressive than the humans, rather than that just being what you’d expect from a robot. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-got-around-to-watching-star-wars-i-regret-that-decision/593292/151 "2011-08-22T07:38:59Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > If, say, you made the crusher non-electronic I guess you could have an Artoo golem use physical force to stop it, but then you’d have to have a massively strong Artoo, which is hardly similar to his character in SW. Or he could have the magic ability to interact with metal, maybe, but that would make him like a superhero, way more skilled and impressive than the humans, rather than that just being what you’d expect from a robot. Or, you have the crusher controlled by an ordinary, physical lever. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-got-around-to-watching-star-wars-i-regret-that-decision/593292/152 "2011-08-22T08:35:55Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Or, you have the crusher controlled by an ordinary, physical lever. Where would the drama be in that then, if it’s something anyone can do, not just Artoo? Oh no, we’re being crushed! Wait - pull that lever, we’ll be fine. Tum-ti-tum. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-got-around-to-watching-star-wars-i-regret-that-decision/593292/153 "2011-08-22T08:56:12Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Or, you have the crusher controlled by an ordinary, physical lever. Even better, have it be controlled by another peasant, who they could either reason with, or you know, smack over the back of the head with a chamberpot. Presumably the bit where R2 accidentally hooks up with a power socket would be when he tries to bribe an off-duty guard or something. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-got-around-to-watching-star-wars-i-regret-that-decision/593292/154 "2011-08-22T08:57:17Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Where would the drama be in that then, if it’s something anyone can do, not just Artoo? Oh no, we’re being crushed! Wait - pull that lever, we’ll be fine. Tum-ti-tum. Sarcasm, right? Because that’s _exactly_ what R2 did in the movie as it is. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-got-around-to-watching-star-wars-i-regret-that-decision/593292/155 "2011-08-22T09:29:30Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Where would the drama be in that then, if it’s something anyone can do, not just Artoo? Oh no, we’re being crushed! Wait - pull that lever, we’ll be fine. Tum-ti-tum. The lever would not be located inside of the trash compactor. The drama would come from wondering if the golems, or constructs, or whatever they are, can figure out where the rest of the heroes are and throw the lever before they’re crushed to death. You know, pretty much exactly how it happened in Star Wars? ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-got-around-to-watching-star-wars-i-regret-that-decision/593292/156 "2011-08-22T09:30:22Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > Even better, have it be controlled by another peasant, who they could either reason with, or you know, smack over the back of the head with a chamberpot. > > Presumably the bit where R2 accidentally hooks up with a power socket would be when he tries to bribe an off-duty guard or something. Do you not think that would be changing the story then? And it’s still something that (almost) any human could do, rather than being something special about that character. Of course you can have the events - well, most of them - happen if you make a lot of changes, but I thought the claim was that you don’t have to make such changes. Is there _any_ science fiction movie which couldn’t be made into fantasy by making as many changes as you guys are advocating? > [@Raguleader](#): > > Sarcasm, right? Because that’s _exactly_ what R2 did in the movie as it is. 😃 Eh? Am I misremembering? I thought he did it electronically due to already being plugged in to the systems. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-got-around-to-watching-star-wars-i-regret-that-decision/593292/157 "2011-08-22T09:41:35Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The lever would not be located inside of the trash compactor. The drama would come from wondering if the golems, or constructs, or whatever they are, can figure out where the rest of the heroes are and throw the lever before they’re crushed to death. > > You know, pretty much exactly how it happened in Star Wars? But… Gah, I’ve already explained this three times in the past page or so. What Artoo was doing was a feature of him being a droid (and his particular type of droid, too). If what he does can be done by any creature with a limb, then it significantly changes the character and the events. I must be phrasing myself really badly if absolutely nobody agrees with something as obvious as ‘change a lot of elements and you can make almost any science fiction movie into fantasy, but Star Wars is not unique in that.’ ☹ Think I’d better give up before the volume of disagreement starts to get to me. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-got-around-to-watching-star-wars-i-regret-that-decision/593292/158 "2011-08-22T10:32:04Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > But… Gah, I’ve already explained this three times in the past page or so. What Artoo was doing was a feature of him being a droid (and his particular type of droid, too). If what he does can be done by any creature with a limb, then it significantly changes the character and the events. I’m pretty sure that, even in _Star Wars_, any creature with a limb could have deactivated the trash compactor. It seems unlikely to me that droids are _required_ to use a computer in the Star Wars universe - they’re just more efficient at it. Certainly, Obi Wan didn’t need a droid to deactivate the tractor beam, which (I would think) would be a significantly more difficult and more heavily secured process than turning off the waste disposal system. Generally speaking, I wouldn’t consider “good with computers” to be an essential part of R2’s character. What’s important is that he is, by his nature, automatically considered subservient to the other characters in the film, but he has a head-strong attitude and a sense of duty that frequently overrides the obedience expected from someone in his position. Changing the nature of the device that he uses to free the rest of the heroes does not change the nature of his character, because the defining trait that allows him to be in a position to save the day is not that he can hack a computer, but that the villains discount him as a potential enemy, due to him being a droid. > [@](#): > > I must be phrasing myself really badly if absolutely nobody agrees with something as obvious as ‘change a lot of elements and you can make almost any science fiction movie into fantasy, but Star Wars is not unique in that.’ ☹ Think I’d better give up before the volume of disagreement starts to get to me. I don’t think the problem here is that people don’t understand you. I think they simply disagree with you. Change a lot of elements, and you can, indeed, make almost any science fiction movie into a fantasy movie. That’s because, if you follow Heinlein’s definition of the genre, there are almost no “true” science fiction movies. (I put the scare quotes in there because I feel that Heinlein’s definition is overly restrictive, but that’s a separate issue.) _2001_ is one exception. _Blade Runner_ is, perhaps, a second. Beyond that, most science fiction films use science fiction as window dressing for otherwise conventional stories. _Star Wars_ is hardly unique in that regard, and I don’t think anyone here has argued differently. If you’re still having trouble with this concept, perhaps this will help. Which of the follow films was made from a play by William Shakespeare? [This one?](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0117509/) [This one?](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0114279/) [Or this one?](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0171359/) The answer, of course, is all three, because none of Shakespeare’s plays - including the history plays - is dependent on a particular time or place. This is true, even if you [don’t use the actual text of the play](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0049223/) for your adaption. The argument here is that _Star Wars_ is fundamentally the same. The core of the story is not dependent on laser beams, or spaceships, or robots, no more than _MacBeth_ is dependent on broadswords, feudalism, or Scotland. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-got-around-to-watching-star-wars-i-regret-that-decision/593292/159 "2011-08-22T20:03:09Z")
> [@Superdude](#): > > Could the screen size also be a factor? I saw _Star Wars_ in the theater. It doesn’t seem to adapt to the small(er) screen as well as seeing it either in a drive-in, or in the cinema. Something about the scale of the ships, and the Death Star… I first saw it (at the tender age of 12) at a drive in with the family. Watching it on a big screen is a great way to see that opening sequence, assuming you haven’t already had that scene spoilered. The sound coming out of a tinny speaker hanging on the station wagon is not so great. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2011, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-got-around-to-watching-star-wars-i-regret-that-decision/593292/160 "2011-08-22T20:28:35Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] That’s because, if you follow Heinlein’s definition of the genre, there are almost no “true” science fiction movies. (I put the scare quotes in there because I feel that Heinlein’s definition is overly restrictive, but that’s a separate issue.) _2001_ is one exception. _Blade Runner_ is, perhaps, a second. [/QUOTE] Could you explain that? Bladerunner is just about a story of a person in position of power coming to empathise with someone who isn’t. Decker learns that the “skin jobs” have feelings, too. He even says so in the last minute of the movie. You can translate that to a bounty hunter tracking down escaped slaves in the old south. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-got-around-to-watching-star-wars-i-regret-that-decision/593292.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-got-around-to-watching-star-wars-i-regret-that-decision/593292.md?page=9)