# So I finally saw ROTK for New Year's Day...(SPOILERS) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 2, 2004, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-saw-rotk-for-new-years-day-spoilers/222266 "2004-01-02T12:19:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-saw-rotk-for-new-years-day-spoilers/222266/1 "2004-01-02T12:19:10Z")
Excellent- not at all MY envisioning in certain areas & not the definitive LOTR (I can see remakes being done exploring various aspects for centuries) -but stiil stunning & moving- Now for observations- The opening with Smeagol & Deagol- wonderful! Btw, wasn’t the Deagol actor in the Shire Pub when the Four returned? I really missed The Ring’s Tempting of Sam- was that filmed? Can I look forward to that on DVD? Saruman’s absence was adequately explained (the assumption seems to be that he was killed as the Ents brought down Isengard, tho I know the cut scenes do it differently & I think it was a mistake to cut them.) Didn’t Denethor look like Terry Gilliam? I actually checked the credits to make sure _L_ (do I recall correctly that the actor was John Noble?) While Arwen was the Hotness for FOTR, as ROTK gets rolling Eowyn become MAJOR Hotness! I’m sure most of us guys by the end are “Arwen- yeah. Galadriel- probably. Rosie- mmm-hmmm… Eowyn- WOW!” Why didn’t Frodo write the FULL title in the Red Book? The Downfall of the Lord of the Rings and the Return of the King. I’d still love to have seen The Scouring! They squandered the Smeagol sympathy factor they built up in TTT. Now for the Big One- the actual destruction of the Ring- what they did was good; but I’d have done it like this… Frodo slowly walks to the edge of the Volcano. Sam lags behind after fighting off Gollum to hear Frodo reciting “Three rings for the Elven Kings… In the land of Mordo where Shadows lie” in a near-trance, near-incantation tone, we realize the Ring is asserting it’s dominance. Sam- “Mr. Frodo, throw it in!” Frodo- “I do not will to do that which I have come to do… The Ring is mine… _turns with a slight sinister expression_ I… am… the Lord of the Rings!” _puts it on & vanishes_ Sam- “Noooo!”, Gollum jumps in, fights with Invisible Frodo, bites the finger off, dances about with the Ring, Crazed Frodo lunges at Gollum who dodges him, Gollum savors the Ring, looks at collapsed wounded Frodo, anquished Sam, sees own reflection in the Ring- reflection momentarily becomes the Sympathetic Gollum, then the original Smeagol and Gollum’s features soften to show Smeagol-awareness coming through, he smiles, dismissively laughs at the Ring “My Precious” & throws himself into the Fire- a clear act of Redemption. Yeah, the purists would howl, there is no basis in the text for deliberate-Gollum-act-of-reparation, but I’d still have done it that way. BUT I did like what they did (except for omitting “I do not will to do…”), and especially now Gollum in the Fire was oblivious to the pain, just in thrall to the Ring’s Will for Self-Preservation, and that Frodo was on the verge of letting go of the Ridge & falling in after it until it finally dissolved in the Lava. That’s all for now. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-saw-rotk-for-new-years-day-spoilers/222266/2 "2004-01-03T19:13:24Z")
bump ---
**Author:** ![BuckleberryFerry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5f9b8f/32.png) [@BuckleberryFerry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BuckleberryFerry)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-saw-rotk-for-new-years-day-spoilers/222266/3 "2004-01-03T19:23:32Z")
I agree with you on everything but the ending. I’m not quite a purist, but I’d have a hard time with Gollum just reverting to Smeagol so quickly in the Cracks of Doom. It’s been thousands of years that he’s been with the Ring and at least 80 where he’s been searching for it–I would have been disinclined to believe that a short reflection in the Ring would change him. But I’ll agree to disagree. Definitely would have liked to have seen the scouring of the Shire, but I’m content with the Sam/Rosie wedding and overjoyed with the presentation of the Grey Havens. I think the temptation of Sam was less a full-fledged scene and was crammed into a brief hesitation of giving the Ring back to Frodo after the Orcs abuse him. Sam holds the Ring out but does not let go, and the music swells menacingly. Of course, I could be misremembering. ---
**Author:** ![Tremmie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Tremmie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tremmie)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-saw-rotk-for-new-years-day-spoilers/222266/4 "2004-01-03T19:23:53Z")
The ring tempting Sam was in, it happened when Frodo was asking for it back after the rescue. ---
**Author:** ![Soapbox\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Soapbox\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soapbox_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-saw-rotk-for-new-years-day-spoilers/222266/5 "2004-01-03T19:37:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FriarTed \* > \*\*Frodo slowly walks to the edge of the Volcano. Sam lags behind after fighting off Gollum to hear Frodo reciting “Three rings for the Elven Kings… In the land of Mordo where Shadows lie” in a near-trance, near-incantation tone, we realize the Ring is asserting it’s dominance. > > Sam- “Mr. Frodo, throw it in!” > > Frodo- “I do not will to do that which I have come to do… The Ring is mine… _turns with a slight sinister expression_ I… am… the Lord of the Rings!” _puts it on & vanishes_ > > Sam- “Noooo!”, Gollum jumps in, fights with Invisible Frodo, bites the finger off, dances about with the Ring, Crazed Frodo lunges at Gollum who dodges him, Gollum savors the Ring, looks at collapsed wounded Frodo, anquished Sam, sees own reflection in the Ring- reflection momentarily becomes the Sympathetic Gollum, then the original Smeagol and Gollum’s features soften to show Smeagol-awareness coming through, he smiles, dismissively laughs at the Ring “My Precious” & throws himself into the Fire- a clear act of Redemption.\*\* That would have been fucking HORRIBLE. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-saw-rotk-for-new-years-day-spoilers/222266/6 "2004-01-03T20:04:43Z")
I saw ROTK a few days before New Year’s Eve and I thoroughly enjoyed it. I’ll have to see it again. I can’t think of any major change from the book that really had me up in arms, even the “Arwen’s fate is now tied to the fate of the Ring” business. Heck, _everybody’s_ fate was tied to the rate of the Ring except that of the escaping Elves; Elrond’s announcement was just a formal recognition of the fact that Arwen was stuck in Middle-Earth with the rest of the mortals. Huh. Yep. Definitely worth seeing again. Now I gotta wait for the EE to come out, too. Grrr. I wonder what they’ll put on the non-EE version that’ll make it worth buying. It’s not as if they have previews to the next movie, 'cos there isn’t a next movie. FISH ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-saw-rotk-for-new-years-day-spoilers/222266/7 "2004-01-03T20:56:40Z")
Actually, Tolkien thought that that was the way the story might have gone (from letter 246 [http://www.americanidea.org/handouts/06240110.htm](http://www.americanidea.org/handouts/06240110.htm)): > [@](#): > > For me perhaps the most tragic moment in the Tale comes in II 323 ff. when Sam fails to note the complete change in Gollum’s tone and aspect. ‘Nothing, nothing’, said Gollum softly. ‘Nice master!’. His repentance is blighted and all Frodo’s pity is (in a sense\*) wasted. Shelob’s lair became inevitable. > > This is due of course to the ‘logic of the story’. Sam could hardly have acted differently. (He did reach the point of pity at last (III 221-222)4 but for the good of Gollum too late.) If he had, what could then have happened? The course of the entry into Mordor and the struggle to reach Mount Doom would have been different and so would the ending. The interest would have shifted to Gollum, I think, and the battle that would have gone on between his repentance and his new love on one side and the Ring. … But ‘possession’ satisfied, I think he would then have sacrificed himself for Frodo’s sake and have _voluntarily_ cast himself into the fiery abyss. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-saw-rotk-for-new-years-day-spoilers/222266/8 "2004-01-03T21:29:53Z")
I didn’t like that they took the book’s ending: twist of fate and Gollum stumbles in, into a Hollywood cliche of a cliffhanging tumble. For a movie that was supposed to be all about not being from Hollywood… boy was it peppered with a Hollywood script, and an amatuer one at that. Gollum’s fall would be so much better if it was an accident, because it leaves room for all sorts of ambiguity about what happened. Was it an intercession? Did Gollum in some way want to be destroyed, knowing he could never be released? ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-saw-rotk-for-new-years-day-spoilers/222266/9 "2004-01-03T22:48:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FriarTed \* > \*\*Excellent- not at all MY envisioning in certain areas & not the definitive LOTR (I can see remakes being done exploring various aspects for centuries) > \*\* > > You’re almost certainly wrong there. I can predict with almost mortal certainty that there WILL NOT be another LOTR movie series until the technology has taken a quantum leap to virtual reality or some such thing…probably not in the next 20-30 years. > > \*\* > Yeah, the purists would howl\*\* Not just the purists…the audiences would have been howling too. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2004, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-saw-rotk-for-new-years-day-spoilers/222266/10 "2004-01-04T00:13:49Z")
After my third viewing, I think I figured out why Jackson added the “cliffhanger” scene. Notice how, when The Ring hits the lava, it does NOT melt right away…it’s a tough-ass evil ring, after all. Thing is…while the Ring’s bobbing on the surface waiting for heat to take over, there’s not a whole lot going on. So, having Sam & Frodo dangle precariously over the bubbing inferno adds a bit more tension than just standing there waiting. I wish the actual melting sequence had been more dramatic, though, instead of it just going “BLOOP” and sinking. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2004, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-saw-rotk-for-new-years-day-spoilers/222266/11 "2004-01-04T00:32:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KGS \* > \*\*Notice how, when The Ring hits the lava, it does NOT melt right away… \*\* The heck with the ring, why didn’t Gollum burst into flame as soon as he hit the lava? He looked like he was slipping into a soothing Jacuzzi, fer Chrissakes! ---
**Author:** ![Tarrsk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/97f17d/32.png) [@Tarrsk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tarrsk)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2004, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-saw-rotk-for-new-years-day-spoilers/222266/12 "2004-01-04T00:41:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KGS \* > \*\*After my third viewing, I think I figured out why Jackson added the “cliffhanger” scene. Notice how, when The Ring hits the lava, it does NOT melt right away…it’s a tough-ass evil ring, after all. Thing is…while the Ring’s bobbing on the surface waiting for heat to take over, there’s not a whole lot going on. So, having Sam & Frodo dangle precariously over the bubbing inferno adds a bit more tension than just standing there waiting. > > I wish the actual melting sequence had been more dramatic, though, instead of it just going “BLOOP” and sinking. \*\* The thing that made the scene work for me was watching Frodo very carefully. Elijah Wood’s acting here is excellent: you can see in his eyes that he WANTS to let go, that he believes that he should; this is no Leonardo de Caprio situation. After the first halfhearted reach for Sam’s hand, Frodo looks down into the abyss with an expression of resignation, almost acceptance. Frodo’s guilt over his failure has already begun to take hold of him- knowing this makes all the difference between Sam’s following lines (“Don’t you let go! REACH!”) being Hollywood cliche and actually having emotional significance. ---
**Author:** ![Horseflesh](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horseflesh/32/7502_2.png) [@Horseflesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horseflesh)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2004, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-saw-rotk-for-new-years-day-spoilers/222266/13 "2004-01-04T00:58:23Z")
I don’t think there was any other way that the ring could have been destroyed except as an ironic twist of fate. The ring’s grip on someone can be so strong (if it so chooses) that nobody in Middle Earth (save for possibly the enigmatic Tom Bombadil) would have conciously let go of it an let it be unmade. When the Ring bobbed on the surface of the lava I thought it was quite interesting that it was trying to “save” itself. It looked as if lava was cooling beneath it and hardening into a little raft. But the ring does not have much power over the physical, only over the hearts and minds of living, thinking creatures. ---
**Author:** ![jmizzou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/edb3f5/32.png) [@jmizzou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmizzou)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2004, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-saw-rotk-for-new-years-day-spoilers/222266/14 "2004-01-04T01:23:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Apos \* > Gollum’s fall would be so much better if it was an accident, because it leaves room for all sorts of ambiguity about what happened. Was it an intercession? Did Gollum in some way want to be destroyed, knowing he could never be released? For your Tolkien enthusiast, sure. But I think Joe Public might see that and say, “But, but, that’s so stupid! That’s like Darth Vader tripping over his cloak and impaling himself on his own lightsaber!” I imagine it was given a Hollywod ending because the original ending was less-than-climatic. Although, I would have been happy for PJ to just say, “Screw the average joe, this scene is for the fans.” ---
**Author:** ![jmizzou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/edb3f5/32.png) [@jmizzou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmizzou)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2004, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-saw-rotk-for-new-years-day-spoilers/222266/15 "2004-01-04T01:25:27Z")
Whoops, make that less-than- **climactic** (the ending not having much affect on the weather, after all). ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2004, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-saw-rotk-for-new-years-day-spoilers/222266/16 "2004-01-04T01:26:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tarrsk \* > **: you can see in his eyes that he WANTS to let go, that he believes that he should; this is no Leonardo de Caprio situation. After the first halfhearted reach for Sam’s hand, Frodo looks down into the abyss with an expression of resignation, almost acceptance.** Yeah, first time I watched that scene, I was afraid that Jackson had _really_ changed the ending… ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2004, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-saw-rotk-for-new-years-day-spoilers/222266/17 "2004-01-04T02:14:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BuckleberryFerry \* > **It’s been thousands of years that he’s been with the Ring and at least 80 where he’s been searching for it–** Gollum had the Ring for 478 years, actually. Déagol found the Ring in TA 2463, in the bed of the Anduin. Sméagol killed him and took it the same day, then fled to the Misty Mountains some time later. The Ring was found by Bilbo in TA 2941. This is 478 years. The Ring was destroyed in TA 3019, so you’re close with the 80 that he’s been searching for it. ---
**Author:** ![BuckleberryFerry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5f9b8f/32.png) [@BuckleberryFerry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BuckleberryFerry)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2004, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-saw-rotk-for-new-years-day-spoilers/222266/18 "2004-01-04T02:27:02Z")
Ah, thank you **jayjay** , I temporarily lost my mind. Still, rather a long time. ---
**Author:** ![Katisha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bcef8e/32.png) [@Katisha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Katisha)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2004, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-saw-rotk-for-new-years-day-spoilers/222266/19 "2004-01-04T02:30:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FriarTed \* > \*\*Didn’t Denethor look like Terry Gilliam? \*\* Meep. I may never look at him the same way again. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2004, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-saw-rotk-for-new-years-day-spoilers/222266/20 "2004-01-04T02:34:49Z")
“Gandalf! Denethor’s gone loopy! He’s cutting out pictures and moving them around like they’re a palantir-vision or something!” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-finally-saw-rotk-for-new-years-day-spoilers/222266.md?page=2)