# So I was thinking about classic 'outnumbered movies'...does Sauron have a 'God' on his side? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 23, 2014, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-was-thinking-about-classic-outnumbered-movies-does-sauron-have-a-god-on-his-side/702263 "2014-10-23T17:18:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-was-thinking-about-classic-outnumbered-movies-does-sauron-have-a-god-on-his-side/702263/21 "2014-10-24T10:36:07Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Shouldn’t we stop right there and say that this “Morgoth-antium” (or whatever) element, inherent in the every atom of Arda, and in everything you just said above, isn’t canon? I’m told the concept of Morgothium is part of HOME, but not everything in HOME is canon. And Morgothisulfatisidium (or whatever) isn’t. Am I misinformed? What is HOME? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-was-thinking-about-classic-outnumbered-movies-does-sauron-have-a-god-on-his-side/702263/22 "2014-10-24T11:08:30Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > What is HOME? Probably [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_History_of_Middle-earth). ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-was-thinking-about-classic-outnumbered-movies-does-sauron-have-a-god-on-his-side/702263/23 "2014-10-24T14:29:09Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > …some rube farmboy shuts off his targeting computer and instead trusts in a sad devotion to an ancient religion and that’s what saves the day. I find your lack of faith… disturbing. ---
**Author:** ![Apocalypso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Apocalypso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apocalypso)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-was-thinking-about-classic-outnumbered-movies-does-sauron-have-a-god-on-his-side/702263/24 "2014-10-24T14:36:29Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I don’t think he interfered even subtly at the end. Gollum could have or could not have lost his footing during his victory “dance”. The closest Eru came to interfering was sending Gandalf back _after_ Gandalf had already shown compassion to Smeagol. Without that compassion Smeagol would never have come back and Frodo would never have accepted Gollum. That happenstance saved all creation. > > [Vasily Arkhipov - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasili_Arkhipov) > > [Stanislav Petrov - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislav_Petrov) > > With the One tapping the inherent power Morgoth put into Arda at the creation, Sauron was as powerful as what remained of Morgoth’s power after he squandered it and was put beyond the door of night. Bringing Morgoth back would necessitate a showdown between Morgoth and Sauron over who gets to wield the One, and that wasn’t a fight that Sauron could hope to win. Sauron never wanted Morgoth back, as that would be giving up his own power to dominate and be cruel as he wished. And Sauron wasn’t under any delusion that Ar-Pharazon and his fleet would defeat the Valar. He laughed at the Numenoreans because they were so easily entranced and fooled, getting his captors to attack his other enemy and destroy themselves. I thought it was Bilbo that showed compassion for Gollum, by sparing him when he could have killed him (“Pity stayed his hand…”), and without that, all would have been lost. Are you saying that Gandalf inspired Bilbo to take pity on Gollum and spare him, or are you referring to something else? I think Eru set the events in motion, sent the Istari to guide people, and then sat back and watched what happened. The books make a big deal about “the age of men” and to me, make it clear that there’s no “divine intervention”. If things went badly and Sauron won, Eru would have eventually erased it all and started over. Can I ask where you’re getting the information that the One Ring “tapped into what remained of Morgoth’s power”? You seem to be saying that Morgoth built a “back door” into all of creation, and Sauron hacked into it with the Ring. Is it just a conclusion that you reached or is there evidence in any of Tolkien’s writings to support this? In any case, no, Sauron could not have challenged Morgoth, ring or no ring. He’d have been squashed like a bug. But I don’t remember reading anything suggesting that Morgoth’s banishment was reversible, or that Sauron was working to free him. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-was-thinking-about-classic-outnumbered-movies-does-sauron-have-a-god-on-his-side/702263/25 "2014-10-24T14:56:20Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > The Avengers have a god on their side (Thor) and beat a god (Loki) + an alien army. Albeit a puny god. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-was-thinking-about-classic-outnumbered-movies-does-sauron-have-a-god-on-his-side/702263/26 "2014-10-24T15:03:15Z")
I think it’s a sub-text of many, many movies, although rarely made explicit. The bad guys have overwhelming force, the odds of the good guys plan succeeding is a million-to-one\*, and yet the good guys win because of their innate goodness. Every James Bond movie, for instance, although there’s no “god” involved. \*According to Terry Pratchett, if the odds are exactly a million-to-one odds, they pay off nine times out of ten. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-was-thinking-about-classic-outnumbered-movies-does-sauron-have-a-god-on-his-side/702263/27 "2014-10-24T18:40:55Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Shouldn’t we stop right there and say that this “Morgoth-antium” (or whatever) element, inherent in the every atom of Arda, and in everything you just said above, isn’t canon? I’m told the concept of Morgothium is part of HOME, but not everything in HOME is canon. And Morgothisulfatisidium (or whatever) isn’t. Am I misinformed? Morgoth’s Ring is one of the HOME books. It is not “canon” or otherwise. It is. > [@Apocalypso](#): > > I thought it was Bilbo that showed compassion for Gollum, by sparing him when he could have killed him (“Pity stayed his hand…”), and without that, all would have been lost. Are you saying that Gandalf inspired Bilbo to take pity on Gollum and spare him, or are you referring to something else? > I think Eru set the events in motion, sent the Istari to guide people, and then sat back and watched what happened. The books make a big deal about “the age of men” and to me, make it clear that there’s no “divine intervention”. If things went badly and Sauron won, Eru would have eventually erased it all and started over. > > Can I ask where you’re getting the information that the One Ring “tapped into what remained of Morgoth’s power”? You seem to be saying that Morgoth built a “back door” into all of creation, and Sauron hacked into it with the Ring. Is it just a conclusion that you reached or is there evidence in any of Tolkien’s writings to support this? > In any case, no, Sauron could not have challenged Morgoth, ring or no ring. He’d have been squashed like a bug. But I don’t remember reading anything suggesting that Morgoth’s banishment was reversible, or that Sauron was working to free him. I too think that Morgoth would squash Sauron like a bug. It is, after all, Morgoth’s power, and “Morgoth’s Ring”. That is why I don’t think Sauron wants the Door of Night re-opened. I do think that Gandalf’s compassion and decency influenced Bilbo and then Frodo. I think it influenced Smeagol. Gandalf spent a lot of time listening to Gollum teasing out Smeagol. I think the last direct breaking the rules intervention of Illuvatar in Middle Earth was the destruction of Numenor and the making of the world round. Even sending Gandalf back was within the rules that he had made for the valar and maiar being changed (reduced/increased) in power after a death, although Gandalf is the first to be increased, rather than greatly reduced. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-was-thinking-about-classic-outnumbered-movies-does-sauron-have-a-god-on-his-side/702263/28 "2014-10-24T18:42:51Z")
Droopy always seemed to be getting some assistance from a deity. Either that, or the deity in question hates butch. ---
**Author:** ![Aquadementia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aquadementia/32/555_2.png) [@Aquadementia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquadementia)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-was-thinking-about-classic-outnumbered-movies-does-sauron-have-a-god-on-his-side/702263/29 "2014-10-24T19:16:57Z")
**War of the Worlds** would be the most blatant saved by god story. **The Blues Brothers** too, but only until they saved the school. Once that was done the law caught up to them. > [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Arguably Conan. He survived by having a loyal audience built over the years thanks to solid comedy writing. Jimmy Fallon on the other hand, I think he maybe made a deal with the devil. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-was-thinking-about-classic-outnumbered-movies-does-sauron-have-a-god-on-his-side/702263/30 "2014-10-24T21:25:47Z")
> [@Aquadementia](#): > > **War of the Worlds** would be the most blatant saved by god story. . . . Wow, no, I gotta disagree with that. It’s a “saved by the enemy’s hubris” story. The Martians invaded without adequate protective measures, and paid the price. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-was-thinking-about-classic-outnumbered-movies-does-sauron-have-a-god-on-his-side/702263/31 "2014-10-24T21:54:23Z")
> [@Aquadementia](#): > > **War of the Worlds** would be the most blatant saved by god story. > [@Trinopus](#): > > Wow, no, I gotta disagree with that. It’s a “saved by the enemy’s hubris” story. The Martians invaded without adequate protective measures, and paid the price. Yeah, it’s more “The Martians screwed up, but we’ll give God the credit.” And IIRC the original HG Wells book goes into more detail, about how their lack of disease resistance was likely something they engineered into themselves or evolved after they destroyed all bacteria on Mars in their pre-history. Martians had a very simplified biology, with anything “unnecessary” removed (like much of a digestive system, which is why they drank blood). ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-was-thinking-about-classic-outnumbered-movies-does-sauron-have-a-god-on-his-side/702263/32 "2014-10-24T22:04:40Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Shouldn’t we stop right there and say that this “Morgoth-antium” (or whatever) element, inherent in the every atom of Arda, and in everything you just said above, isn’t canon? I’m told the concept of Morgothium is part of HOME, but not everything in HOME is canon. And Morgothisulfatisidium (or whatever) isn’t. Am I misinformed? It’s hard to define what is and isn’t canon in JRRT’s world, given his propensity to revising, rethinking, updating, etc. But the writings found in **Morgoth’s Ring** were from the period of time just after JRRT finished LOTR, when he went on quite the writing binge on his old material, to bring it into better accord with his LOTR writings. That at least gives it some heft as material that should be taken seriously when we talk about ‘canon’. It certainly exemplifies some of JRRT’s favorite themes, such as the inherent corruption of the world, the need for it to be eventually broken and remade aright, and the need for Mankind to seek outside of itself and this world in order to attain success. ---
**Author:** ![Aquadementia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aquadementia/32/555_2.png) [@Aquadementia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquadementia)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2014, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-was-thinking-about-classic-outnumbered-movies-does-sauron-have-a-god-on-his-side/702263/33 "2014-10-25T05:37:19Z")
And I was worried if I got any heat it would be from Fallon fans. > [@Trinopus](#): > > Wow, no, I gotta disagree with that. It’s a “saved by the enemy’s hubris” story. The Martians invaded without adequate protective measures, and paid the price. Sorry, there’s what you want and then there’s what is on the printed page. > [@](#): > > In another moment I had scrambled up the earthen rampart and stood upon its crest, and the interior of the redoubt was below me. A mighty space it was, with gigantic machines here and there within it, huge mounds of material and strange shelter places. And scattered about it, some in their overturned war-machines, some in the now rigid handling-machines, and a dozen of them stark and silent and laid in a row, were the Martians–dead!–slain by the putrefactive and disease bacteria against which their systems were unprepared; slain as the red weed was being slain; slain, after all man’s devices had failed, by the humblest things that God, in his wisdom, has put upon this earth. God given protection from our hostile neighbors. They could stand our gravity, temperature and air but it was still an environment where no Martian life could survive. That certainly fits the criteria of the opening post > [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Movies or TV shows where the bad guys SHOULD win, but the good guys have God or _A_ God on their side, even if the intervention is miniscule sometimes. I think the god angle is played up even more at the end of the movie where they take refuge in a church. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2014, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-was-thinking-about-classic-outnumbered-movies-does-sauron-have-a-god-on-his-side/702263/34 "2014-10-25T16:01:29Z")
God put the bacteria on Earth, but that doesn’t mean that he put them there just for the purpose of foiling alien invaders. God made cliffs, too, but that doesn’t mean it’s his doing if you jump off of one. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2014, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-was-thinking-about-classic-outnumbered-movies-does-sauron-have-a-god-on-his-side/702263/35 "2014-10-25T16:06:59Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > God put the bacteria on Earth, but that doesn’t mean that he put them there just for the purpose of foiling alien invaders. God made cliffs, too, but that doesn’t mean it’s his doing if you jump off of one. It’s pretty much said as much in the original movie. No clue on the book or remake. Edit: Now is Wells making some kind of Luddite statement? Or is he saying Man is a backwards animal that sees God in everything? I have no frigging idea. I never gave any thought behind the _theme_ of WotW, but I’ll look into it. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2014, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-was-thinking-about-classic-outnumbered-movies-does-sauron-have-a-god-on-his-side/702263/36 "2014-10-25T16:15:04Z")
Here’s another example though it’s more thematic than plot-driven: The Incredible Shrinking Man. In the end he realizes that no matter how small he gets, God can still see him and he takes comfort in that. ---
**Author:** ![Aquadementia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aquadementia/32/555_2.png) [@Aquadementia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquadementia)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2014, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-was-thinking-about-classic-outnumbered-movies-does-sauron-have-a-god-on-his-side/702263/37 "2014-10-26T22:57:00Z")
Sorry if my last reply came off a bit snippy, Trinopus. In most discussions about War of the Worlds I would never bother bringing up the god aspect. It’s usually good enough that they all died from microorganisms and leave it at that. Given the topic though it’s the divine plan that gets the attention. > [@Chronos](#): > > God put the bacteria on Earth, but that doesn’t mean that he put them there just for the purpose of foiling alien invaders. God made cliffs, too, but that doesn’t mean it’s his doing if you jump off of one. Maybe God didn’t put the sun there to vaporize vampires either but for vampire movies it does the job. Many would have been doomed if it weren’t for the sunrise and a vampire without an alarm wrist watch. It would have been a funnier ending if the Martians all died by jumping off cliffs. Perhaps on Mars they can jump out the door of the tripods and the weak Martian gravity lands them gently on the ground. Why they go splat when leaving their tripods on Earth is a mystery they never solve, yet a ladder never occurs to them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-i-was-thinking-about-classic-outnumbered-movies-does-sauron-have-a-god-on-his-side/702263.md?page=1)