# So if a man choses the wrong religion, wouldn't that be God's fault. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 4, 2009, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-a-man-choses-the-wrong-religion-wouldnt-that-be-gods-fault/479862 "2009-01-04T22:51:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-a-man-choses-the-wrong-religion-wouldnt-that-be-gods-fault/479862/21 "2009-01-05T13:48:23Z")
> [@mrpayday](#): > > but god only made it clear to one thief and not the other How do you know that, could God have made it clear and he rejected it? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-a-man-choses-the-wrong-religion-wouldnt-that-be-gods-fault/479862/22 "2009-01-05T15:39:01Z")
The asertion that God is going to make everything clear at the moment of death has no Biblical basis (and certainly no empirical basis) and sounds like a theological fan wank to me. I also don’t see how it could be distinguishible from a hallucination. Assuming its all true, though, what then is the point of Christians trying to evangelize others? Why bother trying to persuade people of something which God will reveal to them eventually anyway? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-a-man-choses-the-wrong-religion-wouldnt-that-be-gods-fault/479862/23 "2009-01-05T15:55:22Z")
> [@SHAKES](#): > > I’m not sure if this is a whoosh or what. But the Christian bible clearly says if you do not accept Jesus as your saviour than you burn. > > When I hear “free will”, to me, that basically implies that God is saying: “You can chose my way or the wrong way” > > Well, it’s kind of hard to chose “his way” if “his way” is hidden behind door number three. Q.E.D. is correct in this. There is no right religion, as well as there is no wrong religion. You don’t even need a religion to do the right thing. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-a-man-choses-the-wrong-religion-wouldnt-that-be-gods-fault/479862/24 "2009-01-05T16:29:18Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > There is \*only \*wrong religion. Ahhh another true believer. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-a-man-choses-the-wrong-religion-wouldnt-that-be-gods-fault/479862/25 "2009-01-05T16:32:03Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > God will make it clear, though it may be on the person’s deathbed such as the thief on the cross. Can you give any scriptural reference for this belief? ---
**Author:** ![Jettboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@Jettboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jettboy)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-a-man-choses-the-wrong-religion-wouldnt-that-be-gods-fault/479862/26 "2009-01-05T16:45:00Z")
At some point I intend to have a tattooed symbol representing every major (and a few minor) religions. I presently have Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and Church of the Volcano God covered. After death, when I stand before my Maker (assuming that there is one) and he/she says, “The true religion is the Tuvaluan Cargo Cult. Sorry, but you’re not one of 'em.” I can look him/her in the eye and say, “Oh, I’m afraid I _AM_, in fact, sir/madam. Lookee here, I have the tattoo to prove it.” It never hurts to cover all the bases. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-a-man-choses-the-wrong-religion-wouldnt-that-be-gods-fault/479862/27 "2009-01-05T17:33:17Z")
My favorite is the idea of a tribe in Borneo who never met up with our religions. Are they doomed to hell. That would sure be a dirty thing to do to them. But they have not found jesus are have not been saved. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-a-man-choses-the-wrong-religion-wouldnt-that-be-gods-fault/479862/28 "2009-01-05T17:47:50Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > My favorite is the idea of a tribe in Borneo who never met up with our religions. Are they doomed to hell. That would sure be a dirty thing to do to them. But they have not found jesus are have not been saved. Not that it’s that relevant but but there’s a passage that says, “to those whom more is given more is required,” and I think it also indicates that we’re responsible to do the best we can with what we have been given. I think believers don’t get that spouting Biblical passages and warnings against damnation doesn’t automatically qualify as legitimate presentation. Gandhi was familiar with the Bible but rejected Christianity because of the actions of those who claimed to be Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-a-man-choses-the-wrong-religion-wouldnt-that-be-gods-fault/479862/29 "2009-01-05T18:11:59Z")
> [@Jettboy](#): > > At some point I intend to have a tattooed symbol representing every major (and a few minor) religions. I presently have Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and Church of the Volcano God covered. > > After death, when I stand before my Maker (assuming that there is one) and he/she says, “The true religion is the Tuvaluan Cargo Cult. Sorry, but you’re not one of 'em.” I can look him/her in the eye and say, “Oh, I’m afraid I _AM_, in fact, sir/madam. Lookee here, I have the tattoo to prove it.” > > It never hurts to cover all the bases. You should also get the Invisible Pink Unicorn. Also, now that I think about it… Judaism :dubious: ? Aren’t tattoos non-kosher ? If I’m not mistaken and they are, you’ve painted yourself into a corner there 😛 ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-a-man-choses-the-wrong-religion-wouldnt-that-be-gods-fault/479862/30 "2009-01-05T18:20:34Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Assuming its all true, though, what then is the point of Christians trying to evangelize others? Why bother trying to persuade people of something which God will reveal to them eventually anyway? Because, when done in the proper way, in God’s strength and power, it is not the believer doing the evangelizing, but God is showing His glory by doing it through the believer. After all what glory does God get if He comes down in power and gets a believer, but for Him to use one of us to do it, Him acting through us, now that’s really saying something. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-a-man-choses-the-wrong-religion-wouldnt-that-be-gods-fault/479862/31 "2009-01-05T18:21:50Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > My favorite is the idea of a tribe in Borneo who never met up with our religions. Are they doomed to hell. That would sure be a dirty thing to do to them. But they have not found jesus are have not been saved. As quoted above: [QUOTE=Acts 17] 30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-a-man-choses-the-wrong-religion-wouldnt-that-be-gods-fault/479862/32 "2009-01-05T18:30:32Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > … but for Him to use one of us to do it, Him acting through us, now that’s really saying something. Actually, it would be _really saying something_ (more impressive) if He made a wild lion talk to us or made the sky clouds form words to evangelize and proselytize. By using humans, skeptics can’t tell the difference between a lunatic and the real thing. Well, your username does have “ **bird** ” in it… and you are communicating to us right now. Maybe I’ve just refuted my own logic. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-a-man-choses-the-wrong-religion-wouldnt-that-be-gods-fault/479862/33 "2009-01-05T18:35:54Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > As quoted above: Which still doesn’t answer that question. They had a free pass for a while, but it sure seems since that Jesus guy the pass is no longer valid. So, they’re fucked. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-a-man-choses-the-wrong-religion-wouldnt-that-be-gods-fault/479862/34 "2009-01-05T18:36:49Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Can you give any scriptural reference for this belief? [QUOTE=John 12:32] But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw **all** men to myself." [/QUOTE] By Jesus saying He will draw **all** men, this means each and every man shall be drawn to Him. So the event has to take place at some time. I believe this works with the unpardonable sin as well. The only chance of losing salvation would be to go against God at the last possible moment. A God Who loves His people would allow the chance to turn to Him even at the end. It is inconsistent with God’s character to think of the unpardonable sin as anything less then a absolute last chance to repent that was left unheeded. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-a-man-choses-the-wrong-religion-wouldnt-that-be-gods-fault/479862/35 "2009-01-05T18:41:53Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Which still doesn’t answer that question. They had a free pass for a while, but it sure seems since that Jesus guy the pass is no longer valid. > > So, they’re fucked. > > -Joe Here is a more literal translation (NASB): [QUOTE=Acts 17] 30"Therefore having (A)overlooked (B)the times of ignorance, God is (C)now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, [/QUOTE] The condition is that ‘God has to declare to men’, if God did not declare it to you He will overlook the ‘times of ignorance’. ---
**Author:** ![Jettboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@Jettboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jettboy)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-a-man-choses-the-wrong-religion-wouldnt-that-be-gods-fault/479862/36 "2009-01-05T18:43:19Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Also, now that I think about it… Judaism :dubious: ? Aren’t tattoos non-kosher ? If I’m not mistaken and they are, you’ve painted yourself into a corner there 😛 According to a Jewish pal o’ mine, the tattooed bits can’t be buried in a Jewish cemetary, so most of the younger, more non-traditional Jews have their ink done on arms and legs. The aformentioned Jewboy has a little star of David on his ankle, and his relatives have said that they’re going to have the ankle/foot removed prior to his trip to the boneyard. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-a-man-choses-the-wrong-religion-wouldnt-that-be-gods-fault/479862/37 "2009-01-05T18:51:44Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > By Jesus saying He will draw **all** men, this means each and every man shall be drawn to Him. So the event has to take place at some time. > > I believe this works with the unpardonable sin as well. The only chance of losing salvation would be to go against God at the last possible moment. A God Who loves His people would allow the chance to turn to Him even at the end. It is inconsistent with God’s character to think of the unpardonable sin as anything less then a absolute last chance to repent that was left unheeded. Wow! That’s an incredible stretch of interpretation, which amounts to you finding some passage that you might twist into fitting an idea you came up with. That’s not support. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-a-man-choses-the-wrong-religion-wouldnt-that-be-gods-fault/479862/38 "2009-01-05T18:59:38Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Wow! That’s an incredible stretch of interpretation, which amounts to you finding some passage that you might twist into fitting an idea you came up with. That’s not support. How else could you interpret it? all means all. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-a-man-choses-the-wrong-religion-wouldnt-that-be-gods-fault/479862/39 "2009-01-05T19:39:50Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > How else could you interpret it? all means all. Are you serious? The Bible is wide open for interpretation and what usually happens is what you’re giving us an example of. Believers decide which verses should be literal and which verses are not, and this is done usually with them wanting to support their preconceived idea or doctrine. This verse could have various meanings. It also says > [@](#): > > 33He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die. so it sounds like he was referring to what was going on then rather than making some reference about every person everywhere in every time having a shot at accepting him even if it’s in the 11th hour. That’s just wild baseless speculation to support a pet theory. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2009, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-a-man-choses-the-wrong-religion-wouldnt-that-be-gods-fault/479862/40 "2009-01-05T20:07:59Z")
That seems to be the necessary consequence of the notion of Revelation. Supposedly the Free Will part comes in regarding whether or not you heed God’s call. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-a-man-choses-the-wrong-religion-wouldnt-that-be-gods-fault/479862.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-a-man-choses-the-wrong-religion-wouldnt-that-be-gods-fault/479862.md?page=3)