# So if Mossad used UK passports whats the correct response? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 18, 2010, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459 "2010-02-18T12:33:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Abe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f1d935/32.png) [@Abe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/241 "2010-02-20T06:43:58Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > As such, I can see why you ignored my last questions directed to you. Or any of several other questions that he has dodged in his “high dudgeon” nonsense. Aside from ridicule, misrepresentation, and dumbing down of others’ arguments, Finn has attempted to position his opponents as being in the anti-semitic conspiracy theorists camp. This has taken him into some pretty bizarre territory. An example is his vitriolic refusal that a country’s and people’s reputations are harmed by such international incidents. You’d expect a supporter of Israel to consider such issues more carefully, instead of arguing in bad faith. ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/242 "2010-02-20T07:13:09Z")
> [@Abe](#): > > Or any of several other questions that he has dodged in his “high dudgeon” nonsense. Aside from ridicule, misrepresentation, and dumbing down of others’ arguments, Finn has attempted to position his opponents as being in the anti-semitic conspiracy theorists camp. This has taken him into some pretty bizarre territory. > > ((An example is his vitriolic refusal that a country’s and people’s reputations are harmed by such international incidents.)) If they didn’t kill an arms smuggler this wouldn’t even be on our radar. This is similar to your average mob hit or drive by. So Israel doesn’t want Mossad smuggling in weapons to Gaza and he gets knocked off. They used passports from many countries. Illegal? yes, Did the guy have it coming? yes, who did it? I don’t know or care. A bad guy, kills another bad guy. It isn’t anti semetic it just is what it is, what it was, and what it will always be over there. A never ending turf war. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/243 "2010-02-20T07:56:46Z")
> [@Perciful](#): > > So Israel doesn’t want Mossad smuggling in weapons to Gaza and he gets knocked off. Pssst—Hamas. Hamas is the organization that Israel doesn’t want smuggling weapons to Gaza. Mossad is the Israeli agency that allegedly supplied the assassins to knock the guy off. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/244 "2010-02-20T08:38:26Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Their moral code really doesn’t matter. If you want legitimacy, you need to act morally. Because your enemy is immoral, doesn’t mean you get to be immoral. Because your enemy is a terrorist, doesn’t mean you get to behave like a terrorist. The more you do, the longer the whole mess drags on, and the more the rest of the world condemns you - which you then just use as further justification that you “need” to act like a terrorist. Well I think this is a self fulfilling prophesy But, they _like_ self-fulfilling prophecies! After all, they did invent the ultimate one, Armaggedon. ---
**Author:** ![mutantmoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a87d85/32.png) [@mutantmoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mutantmoose)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/245 "2010-02-20T10:48:36Z")
Just one thing that no one’s mentioned regarding what the UK etc can do in response. It wouldn’t involve the UN imposing sanctions as someone mentioned. Since the countries involved are Ireland, UK, France and Germany there is the possibility of an EU response. Israel gets favoured status on its imports into the EU - it could lose this status. It’s highly unlikely it would go this far but I’m just pointing out what could happen. > [@Alessan](#): > > It’s a combination of things: the fact that both British trade unions and academic organizations have boycotted Israel, the fact that threats and attempts have been made to arrest Israeli military officers and even government ministers visiting the UK, the fact that BBC News - which we get here - is perceived as having an anti-Israeli bias ([something others have noted as well](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-451138/Report-BBCs-anti-Israel-bias-stay-secret.html)), as well as various utterances by British politicians. Some of it is certainly being overblown by the Israeli media, but the feeling is definitely there. I think you’re exaggerating the “virulent” anti-Israeli-ism in the UK. Trade unions and academic organisations are traditionally leftist groups and are not the government. The BBC is an independent journalistic organisation - sometimes it’s critical of Israel, sometimes it’s critical of the Palestinians. Either way it’s not the government. “British politicians” is a meaningless phrase. There are strongly pro-Israel politicians and strongly pro-Palestinian politicians. These people are not the government either. The government tends to take a fairly neutral view of the conflict itself while (of course) condemning terrorism. Not sure which military officers were threatened with arrest. Maybe you’re referring to people involved with the Jenin incident? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/246 "2010-02-20T13:42:14Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > you argue constantly that anyone who doesn’t agree with you whole-heartedly is arguing “relativism”. Never happened. I have argued that those people who say things like “woe is us, we cannot tell who is a terrorist. On one hand, we have a definition of people who deliberately target civilians in order to cause fear/terror and especially to effect political change, and on the other hand we have a definition of ‘people who China doesn’t like’.” That’s the very definition of relativism. And we’ve seen a few others. I haven’t demanded that everybody agree with me totally, nor have I conformed to your wishes and said that anybody who doesn’t is engaged in relativism. > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > As such, I can see why you ignored my last questions directed to you. I didn’t respond because I have only so much patience with some questions repeated endlessly. You asked me if leadership was a fair target. I said yes, in a war and when it was a valid military conflict rather than attacking someone you were at peace with. Then you asked again, rephrasing slightly. Then you asked again. After a certain point, it’s really not worth my time to keep pointing out “In a valid war leadership is a valid target.” It’s rather unreasonable of you to ask the same question again and again and then get annoyed when I decide to stop answering it after I’ve given you several answers and you keep asking the same question, just phrased slightly differently. > [@Abe](#): > > Or any of several other questions that he has dodged In point of fact, I have dodged none. I will note, however, _that the folks argue the other side in the thread have dodged mine, repeatedly_. Or will you be the one to explain how war/sanctions which harm or kill dramatically more innocents than assassination, which ideally kills no innocents at all, is somehow more ‘moral’. Explain how unnecessary death and misery elevates your position to the level of morality. As long as you’re concerned about dodging questions, that is. > [@Abe](#): > > Finn has attempted to position his opponents as being in the anti-semitic conspiracy theorists camp. As this never actually happened, it leaves us with an interesting situation. We did have one poster post about how this incident was bad because, he claimed, it might lead to certain ramifications in the ‘Arab street’ due to the ZOG conspiracy theory. I refused to engage with such rationalizations for the same reason that I’d refuse to discuss abortion issues with someone who talked about how we really needed to rethink our policies because what might the abortion clinic bombers think? But I do notice that we’ve now moved on to the classic “Ayieeeee, nobody can criticize anything Israel does without being called an anti-semite!” Unfortunately enough for your claim, nobody in this thread was actually called an anti-semite, let alone an anti-semite conspiracy theorist. Those who were, were the members of hypothetical ‘Arab street’ who we were told subscribe to the ZOG conspiracy theory. You now claim this was about folks in the thread. I think there’s a message in there somewhere. > [@Abe](#): > > An example is his vitriolic refusal that a country’s and people’s reputations are harmed by such international incidents. Cite me saying that, anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/247 "2010-02-20T15:30:18Z")
Not exactly responsive to the OP but a fascinating half hour of spliced surveillance tapes starting 19 hrs before the murder. [http://video.gulfnews.com/services/player/bcpid4267205001?bctid=66672644001](http://video.gulfnews.com/services/player/bcpid4267205001?bctid=66672644001) ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/248 "2010-02-20T15:32:47Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Pssst—Hamas. Hamas is the organization that Israel doesn’t want smuggling weapons to Gaza. Mossad is the Israeli agency that allegedly supplied the assassins to knock the guy off. Oops! Thanks I get all the regimes mixed up.:smack: ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/249 "2010-02-20T15:46:07Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > 1. No, I’d have no problem if British intelligence took out a valid target and used American passports as their ocver. How about if (pick a country)'s intelligence service used YOUR passport for a hit on someone? ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/250 "2010-02-20T16:02:04Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > How about if (pick a country)'s intelligence service used YOUR passport for a hit on someone? I would hope my country would clear it up as soon as possible! I would think it was pretty cool that my passport took out a thug who was responsible for the killing of many people. In the US the person might sue the government agency that stole their passport and get a big settlement. I’m not sure with UK identity theft if you can sue the person or agency that stole your passport? Any lawyers out there? ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/251 "2010-02-20T17:03:59Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > Not exactly responsive to the OP but a fascinating half hour of spliced surveillance tapes starting 19 hrs before the murder. > [http://video.gulfnews.com/services/player/bcpid4267205001?bctid=66672644001](http://video.gulfnews.com/services/player/bcpid4267205001?bctid=66672644001) Good find! ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/252 "2010-02-20T17:24:28Z")
Thanks for post #246, **Finn** , and confirming what I said in my previous post. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/253 "2010-02-20T19:53:44Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Thanks for post #246, **Finn** , and confirming what I said in my previous post. So by showing that you were completely wrong about everything you said, I confirmed everything you said (that was wrong). Interesting tactic. Not sure of its utility, but interesting. “Thank you for showing I’m wrong, that just proves how right I am!” Good luck with that. > [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > How about if (pick a country)'s intelligence service used YOUR passport for a hit on someone? Oh my god, just thinking about it has given me the vapors!!! > [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > You need a cite that you aren’t allowed to commit murder in other sovereign nations? Really? If only dodging was an Olympic sport… Of course, the claim was not that certain nations have laws that define certain things as murder. The claim was that it is a violation of _international law_. I take it that your act of changing the subject and trying to substitute a totally different example means that you can not, in fact, show the relevant international law? > [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > You act like there is this official definition of what a terrorist is. To you he may be a smiling old man, but to China might be considered a terrorist. What makes China’s definition of a terrorist less valid than yours? Or Iran’s for that matter. Nothing. There are no standards, everything is totally relative, and we can’t even define terrorism if China defines it as whatever they don’t like. Will you be sending me your computer then? No objective standard of personal property, cultures disagree, yadda yadda. You do really believe that, right? This isn’t a rationalization to avoid defining terrorism? So when can I expect you to send me your computer? > [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > That is flat out wrong as had been pointed out over and over again in the thread. Wrong, bullshit, and nonsense. Nothing has been “pointed out”. In fact, in the fact of numerous challenges to show why, in the history of modern espionage this hasn’t caused problems for nations who passports were used, it suddenly would now, people have remained silent. Because, the fact is, taking out a terrorist with zero civilian casualties is cleaner and more humane than war or sanctions. You can “point out” whatever you like, but as long as you avoid the very simple facts, you’re not refuting anything, only avoiding. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/254 "2010-02-20T20:39:57Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > So by showing that you were completely wrong about everything you said, I confirmed everything you said (that was wrong). Interesting tactic. Not sure of its utility, but interesting. “Thank you for showing I’m wrong, that just proves how right I am!” You haven’t been right about anything. You just declare yourself correct, and will brook no disagreement. You use the words “interesting” and “silly” to mock and show disdain, and your arguments are nothing other than you blustering on and on and on. Other’s thoughts on the matter are “bullshit”, “wrong”, “nonsense”, “lack cogence”, or are too “relative” to matter. You really have nothing here, except for volume and an unflinching confidence in your own beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/255 "2010-02-20T20:48:08Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > … Oh my god, just thinking about it has given me the vapors!!! Burp! > [@](#): > > … There are no standards, everything is totally relative, and we can’t even define terrorism … Because, the fact is, taking out a terrorist with zero civilian casualties is cleaner and more humane than war or sanctions. … Finis. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/256 "2010-02-20T20:48:57Z")
Ah, I see, the classic “no matter what the facts are, I’m gonna keep on truckin” gambit. Why don’t you put your money where your mouth is and show why, for instance, in all the history of modern espionage using false passports hasn’t had any real negatives for the countries that were impersonates, but all of a sudden now it might. Or, show why sanctions /war which hurt many, many innocents are better than assassinations that harm zero innocents. Got anything? Or just more “U R WRONG!!!” ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/257 "2010-02-20T21:01:37Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Ah, I see, the classic “no matter what the facts are, I’m gonna keep on truckin” gambit. > > Why don’t you put your money where your mouth is and show why, for instance, in all the history of modern espionage using false passports hasn’t had any real negatives for the countries that were impersonates, but all of a sudden now it might. > Or, show why sanctions /war which hurt many, many innocents are better than assassinations that harm zero innocents. > > Got anything? Or just more “U R WRONG!!!” Actually, what I said (assuming that you are replying to me) was that you haven’t shown anyone that you are right. You just bray on loudly about it, over and over and over again. Your refusal to consider anything that anyone else has written as anything other than “silly”, sarcastically “interesting”, “nonsense”, “wrong” or “bullshit” is all that I’ve seen out of you, other than your declarations of your views being right. Good luck with that. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/258 "2010-02-20T21:09:59Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > Finis. Please oh please tell me that you understand which is sarcasm and which isn’t? > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > […] So, like I said: > [@](#): > > the classic “no matter what the facts are, I’m gonna keep on truckin” gambit. > > Why don’t you put your money where your mouth is and show why, for instance, in all the history of modern espionage using false passports hasn’t had any real negatives for the countries that were impersonates, but all of a sudden now it might. > Or, show why sanctions /war which hurt many, many innocents are better than assassinations that harm zero innocents. > > Got anything? Or just more “U R WRONG!!!” ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/259 "2010-02-20T21:18:14Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Good find! Thank the NYT online this AM. A pride of Judah Lions stalking and bringing down a trophy Palestinian. You don’t tug on Superman’s cape and you don’t mess with Mossad. HTF did the Dubai police put this together w/o some help from Mossad? Pure Israeli propaganda, courtesy of of the Times. Times, they are a changin’? Nope. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/260 "2010-02-20T23:15:27Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Please oh please tell me that you understand which is sarcasm and which isn’t? Got it? I, for one, am willing to agree to agree. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459.md?page=14)