# So if Mossad used UK passports whats the correct response? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 18, 2010, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459 "2010-02-18T12:33:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/41 "2010-02-18T18:34:28Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > First of all, nobody thinks the Brits are behind this, and nobody thinks that the Mossad - if they are indeed behind this - will be using British passports again in the near future. So there’s no real risk involved. And seeing as the UK is the currently the most virulently anti-Israeli country in Europe, and has even gone so far as to attempt to arrest Israeli officers and politicians, maybe they deserved to have their noses tweaked a bit. An alliance works both ways. Bullshit there is no real risk involved. And even if that is true, it isn’t really up to Mossad to determine what level of risk they should impose on all passport holders of an at least nominally allied country. And if, as you suggest, it was a deliberate action aimed in an anti-British manner then there should certainly be consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/42 "2010-02-18T18:38:29Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > And you know who else ordered people killed? Hitler! > > And President Obama! Does this comment have anything to do with my post? Anything? Did you somehow think that this was a snazzy rebuttal of some kind? Because it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/43 "2010-02-18T18:42:16Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Next thing you know, spies will stop wearing their “Hi, I’m a spy!” badges. Well, I think the point being made here is that there’s a significant difference between spies not wearing “Hi, I’m a spy!” badges and assassins wearing badges that falsely proclaim them to be citizens of a different country that had nothing to do with the assassination. It’s up to Israel to decide for itself how much diplomatic goodwill it’s willing to sacrifice for the sake of its anti-terror objectives. But I’m not sure it’s up to Israel to make such decisions on behalf of UK citizens. > [@Alessan](#): > > Seeing as the UAE doesn’t recognize Israel’s existence, has no diplomatic relations with it and doesn’t allow bearers of Israeli passports to enter the country, I’d hardly call it “neutral”. If it wants respect, maybe it should show some. While I wish that the UAE (and all other ME nations in the same situation) would establish diplomatic relations with Israel, I can kind of see how this particular incident would tend to confirm them in thinking that it wouldn’t be a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/44 "2010-02-18T18:42:48Z")
I’m sure people would be just as understanding if Britain decided to rid itself of a troublesome Imam and it up as a false-flag operation implicating the Israelis. That wouldn’t be seen as threatening at all, and would just be jovially accepted as nose-tweaking. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/45 "2010-02-18T18:43:34Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Does this comment have anything to do with my post? Anything? Did you somehow think that this was a snazzy rebuttal of some kind? Because it isn’t. One false analogy deserves another. Look, it all comes down to this: whether you believe that nations should engage in espionage and covert operations. If you don’t, then fine. We’ll agree to disagree. But if you do think nations should be able to spy on each other, then there’s no other way to do it. Passports \*will \*be forged. Local laws \*will \*be broken. Gentlemen \*will \*be reading each other’s mail. You can’t be “honorable” and still be a good spy. And if you don’t intend to be a good spy, why bother? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/46 "2010-02-18T18:49:04Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > But if you do think nations should be able to spy on each other, then there’s no other way to do it. Passports will be forged. Local laws will be broken. Gentlemen will be reading each other’s mail. You can’t be “honorable” and still be a good spy. I don’t think the issue here is whether nations should be too “honorable” to do spy things like read each other’s mail and play sneaky tricks on their enemies. The question is, how far is a nation justified in implicating its **allies** in the sneaky tricks it plays on its enemies? Telling lies to fool your enemy is one thing, but hiding behind your ally’s skirts to fool your enemy, and consequently potentially putting your ally at risk (or further at risk) from your enemy, is arguably on a different level. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/47 "2010-02-18T18:57:52Z")
> [@](#): > > Well cry me a river. Let’s help these Muslim’s recognize the Israeli-English. Just what is an Israeli citizen to do if he wants to travel in a Muslim country. Either he is denied access or he’s made himself a target with his Israeli passport . Why would any Muslim want any Israeli, or anyone who they suspect being an Israeli in their country? Especially since that government thinks it s fine to flout the laws of any country to murder those it holds a grudge with. See they didn’t just flout the law in one country, they actually flouted the whole principle of law on every country except perhaps Israel itself. Just because some, or all nations break the law, just because they spy and carry out covert operations, that is still not a justification for doing it, it certainly undermines the moral high ground that Israel claims to hold, and furthermore, it it is less easy to support Israel, that support will now be much more conditional. Sure we will forget, until the next time, wonder what will happen when some Arab nation eventually gets its hands on a nuclear device, I’m sure at that point someone will remember. You have to be careful when trading justifications, and it certainly will not move things toward peace and settlement, maybe that is what Israel claims it wants, but the actiojns don’t show this intention up at all well. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/48 "2010-02-18T19:08:40Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Gee, I live here on a planet where the vast majority of all Arabs are from countries at peace with Israel. Are things different where you are? In fact lots of Israeli tourists used to go to Egypt all the time. Things are quite different with our Arab populations here on Earth. Of 22 countries in the Arab League only two have recognized Israel’s right to exist. Why do Israelis no longer travel to Egypt on your planet? ---
**Author:** ![Sri\_Theo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f04885/32.png) [@Sri\_Theo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sri_Theo)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/49 "2010-02-18T19:10:41Z")
I dunno - isn’t another part of being a good spy not not getting caught on CCTV 😉 From your intensely Realist perspective of IR **Alessan** surely their should be a heavy handed response form the British, French and Irish governments. Israel has put their citizens in greater danger when travelling and therefore to prevent this happening _again_ the affected should take harsh measures to make it not worth their while. Maybe they can cease to recognise joint Israeli -UK/FR/EIRE citizenship, as the goals of these nations are obviously incompatible. As well as making travel for Israeli citizens within the EU more difficult. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/50 "2010-02-18T19:21:16Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > Why would any Muslim want any Israeli, or anyone who they suspect being an Israeli in their country? Especially since that government thinks it s fine to flout the laws of any country to murder those it holds a grudge with. Well if that is a justification for anti-Israeli (anti-semitic) attitude, why are Britons allowing Muslims into their country, given that they are at war with Muslims ? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/51 "2010-02-18T19:23:31Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Well, I think the point being made here is that there’s a significant difference between spies not wearing “Hi, I’m a spy!” badges and assassins wearing badges that falsely proclaim them to be citizens of a different country that had nothing to do with the assassination. No, really, there isn’t. People seem to actually be advocating that covert assets involved in wetwork use the passports of their actual nations. Does anybody think that this is really how the game is played? When the CIA inserts assets into foreign nations, they use their real passports? They have clear documents identifying themselves as Americans? [Using false documents is simply how this is done.](https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/kent-csi/vol4no1/html/v04i1a04p_0001.htm) Acting shocked that intelligence assets cloak their true identity is okay if folks really want to get worked up about it, but it’s somewhat silly. Easier to take arms against a sea of troubles, so to speak. > [@Kimstu](#): > > It’s up to Israel to decide for itself how much diplomatic goodwill it’s willing to sacrifice for the sake of its anti-terror objectives. But I’m not sure it’s up to Israel to make such decisions on behalf of UK citizens. I know that a lot of folks are claiming that this is some sort of serious risk for Brits, but come on. Do you think that Johnny Jihad wouldn’t be looking for “agents of the Zionist Entity” anyways? Do you think that, before now, Johnny expected Israeli spies to be traveling under Israeli passports? That instead of assuming that everybody is a potential spy, that now when they see a UK passport they’re going to assume it’s a potential spy, but French, Germans, whatever passports will be ignored? This is all standard, and it hasn’t resulted in any horrible consequences for foreign nationals in the history of modern espionage. I don’t anticipate that this will be the tipping point. Why would you? ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/52 "2010-02-18T19:26:51Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > The question is, how far is a nation justified in implicating its **allies** in the sneaky tricks it plays on its enemies? Which allies have been seriously implicated here? Does anybody really think the UK, France, Germany, et al sent a hit team to do this job? The passports have been established as fakes. The hit team may have worked for Mossad, or they may have worked for someone else…possibly a rival Arab outfit that has a beef with Hamas. The one thing that appears pretty solid is the hit team were not agents of the countries whose passports were used. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/53 "2010-02-18T19:31:31Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > This is all standard, and it hasn’t resulted in any horrible consequences for foreign nationals in the history of modern espionage. I don’t anticipate that this will be the tipping point. Why would you? Presumably for similar reasons as US Agents are not, I believe, allowed to use cover identities as journalists, given the risk journalists would be under if they did. And also for similar reasons that American friends of mine with joint Irish citizenship often travel on their Irish passports, especially when going to ‘trouble spots’ around the world. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/54 "2010-02-18T19:40:09Z")
Thank you to **Kimstu** and **casdave** for being more eloquent than I am in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/55 "2010-02-18T19:51:14Z")
> [@The Flying Dutchman](#): > > > [@Paul in Qatar](#): > > > > Gee, I live here on a planet where the vast majority of all Arabs are from countries at peace with Israel. > > Things are quite different with our Arab populations here on Earth. Of 22 countries in the Arab League only two have recognized Israel’s right to exist. I think you two are talking at cross-purposes, and not necessarily contradicting each other. If to be “at peace with” is equivalent to be “not at war with”, then yes, Arab countries in general at the moment are at peace with Israel. If to be “at peace with” means “to have any diplomatic and/or trade relations with”, on the other hand, then Bahrain, Iraq, Lebanon, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Yemen, and United Arab Emirates are off that list. (However, UAE and Qatar are not majority-Arabic-speaking countries, while Bahrain and Oman are less than 2/3 Arabic-speaking and many Lebanese reject Arab identity. So it’s a bit sweeping to call all of them “Arab countries” _tout court_.) However, Egypt and Jordan alone, which do have full diplomatic relations with Israel, contain at least a quarter of the population of the Arab League. So that is quite a lot of Arabs who qualify as “at peace with Israel” no matter which definition of “at peace with” you use. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/56 "2010-02-18T19:54:09Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Presumably for similar reasons as US Agents are not, I believe, allowed to use cover identities as journalists The entire point behind NOC’s is that they could be regular folks. We don’t see businessmen being murdered left and right, for example. As to whether or not the CIA has turned a non-zero number of journalists, I wouldn’t bet against it. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/57 "2010-02-18T19:55:02Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Which allies have been seriously implicated here? Does anybody really think the UK, France, Germany, et al sent a hit team to do this job? The passports have been established as fakes. The hit team may have worked for Mossad, or they may have worked for someone else…possibly a rival Arab outfit that has a beef with Hamas. The one thing that appears pretty solid is the hit team were not agents of the countries whose passports were used. Doesn’t this rely on those passports being found to be fakes, though? I don’t know how certain it would be that that would be found out, though. ---
**Author:** ![Sri\_Theo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f04885/32.png) [@Sri\_Theo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sri_Theo)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/58 "2010-02-18T19:55:45Z")
**Oakminster** thats not the point. The concern is that the more events like this come to light, the less people are going to believe UK citizens are actually UK citizens therefore they are at more risk. And following **Alessan’s** train of thought - “surely the business as usual” description only applies as long as you don’t get caught? They’ve been found out now and if we don’t do something then we’ll seem like utter cowards. Of course that doesn’t mean we will do anything… And the UK isn’t at war with _all_ Muslims **Flying Dutchman** so your point is moot. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/59 "2010-02-18T20:08:06Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > However, UAE and Qatar are not majority-Arabic-speaking countries, while Bahrain and Oman are less than 2/3 Arabic-speaking… I did not realize this. What are the other common languages in Qatar, etc.? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/60 "2010-02-18T20:10:09Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > People seem to actually be advocating that covert assets involved in wetwork We can come right out and say “assassination” for this. I don’t think anybody here will be shocked. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > use the passports of their actual nations. No, I don’t think that’s what’s being advocated here. The specific question is whether it’s justifiable for assassins to pose as citizens of countries that are **allies** of their government. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > This is all standard, and it hasn’t resulted in any horrible consequences for foreign nationals in the history of modern espionage. I don’t anticipate that this will be the tipping point. Why would you? You seem to be trying to subtly move the goalposts here from “Is Israel justified in using an allied country’s passports to cloak its assassination agents?” to “Is it reasonable to expect that Israel’s using an allied country’s passports to cloak its assassination agents will somehow constitute a tipping point for horrible consequences for foreign nationals?” I don’t think those are actually the same question. In any case, as **orcenio** pointed out, other countries such as Canada and New Zealand **have** objected in the past to Israel’s using their passports in this way to screen its spies. It may be a standard practice, but that doesn’t mean that it’s necessarily considered justified by the countries it’s practiced on. > [@Oakminster](#): > > Which allies have been seriously implicated here? Does anybody really think the UK, France, Germany, et al sent a hit team to do this job? The passports have been established as fakes. Oh, certainly, I don’t think anybody is in doubt that the Mossad agents were not actually UK citizens. The concern expressed by various posters here for the potential consequences to UK citizens seems to be this: in the future, _bona fide_\* UK passport holders might be more likely to be suspected of being Mossad agents **pretending** to be UK citizens, like the assassins in this case. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459.md?page=4)