# So if Mossad used UK passports whats the correct response? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 18, 2010, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459 "2010-02-18T12:33:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/81 "2010-02-18T21:16:32Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > **Flying Dutchman** > > I have seen so many very poor arguments on message boards before, but yours is just so rubbish on so many levels that it is difficult to know where to start. > > First, the UK does not ban Israelis from its territory, perhaps that is because we are capable of recognising the differance between the law abiding majority, and criminals. You will also note, we don’t ban inhabitants of any nation due solely to their religion or nationality.We do ban individuals, some of them are world leaders, and we do this because of their behaviour. > > Next, we do not have a war on Muslims, we are in conflict with some people who describe themselves that way, but it is a far stretch to use this as any sort of debate point, and frankly you are intellectually dishonest, and that is about the very worst thing one poster can say about another in GD. > > For your information, to dispel your startling ignorance, being anti semitic is not the same as being anti-Israeli, you are aware that very many Muslims are derived from Semitic roots, probably not, given your rather ill informed post. > > Next, being anti-crime, in this case international terrorism and murder, is not being anti -Israel, or anti-Semitic, it is what it is. > > Perhaps you are saying that automatically, being anti- terrorist crime is also anti-Israel, which is rather silly. It would also mean that I believe that every Israeli is a criminal. > > I am not in the practice of kindergarten debating but it seems this is not the position of everyone in this thread. There is one notable exception. > > I do not accept that to continue to exist,Israel should be given a pass to commit murder and behave as a terrorist, cross international borders and put citizens of other nations at risk, solely for its self interest, and to the exclusion of that of it’s allies and innocent parties. > > My view is reasonably straightforward, the rule of law applies, no matter what the motives or supposed justification, a crime of murder is a crime of murder, and export to other nations makes it terrorism. Many Israelis are fine with this action, but many will not, in any case, if Israelis and their agencies wish to break international law, they cannot be allowed to drag others into their squabbles. > > I do not yet see any distinction between the people who planned authorised and undertook this murder and those with whom I am charged with ensuring stay off the streets of my country for their criminal behaviour. > > They are all criminals but the ones I deal with have been handled through our judiciary, international executions and state sponsored terrorists are not, which makes the particular Israelis involved somewhat worse than the muggers, rapists, burglars and other assorted scum I deal with on a daily basis. > > Given that this is state run terrorism, I doubt there will be much comeback on the criminals, since the government - by sending out this mission - has itself become criminal. > > We took the view of the Bulgarian government when it eliminated opposition, that it was effectively a terrorist oragnisation, the US bombed Libya because it wanted to discourage that country from sponsoring terrorism, we had serious diplomatic issues when Russia murdered Litvenenko, I think our government, and most others will be hypocritical and inconsistant, Israel will not suffer any such censure. > > Still will not make it right, its still murder. What is your take on targeted killings of specific folks your country does not like via remote drones? State-sponsored terrorism or not? > **[RAF 'relying' on drones in Afghanistan](https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/feb/07/raf-drones-afghanistan)** > > Freedom of information request reveals unmanned weapons more prominent in RAF strategy ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/82 "2010-02-18T21:17:41Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > Still will not make it right, its still murder. Murder? Yes. Terrorism? No. Terrorism requires targeting innocents for political purposes. This guy was no innocent, he was a leader of a terrorist organization, directly or indirectly responsible for the deaths of many Israeli civilians. I kinda wish they’d wrapped his lifeless corpse in bacon, but I’m harsh that way. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/83 "2010-02-18T21:20:47Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Unless the agents are actually caught in the act, there isn’t a lot the other countries can do about it, other than what they are doing. Israel routinely refuses to confirm or deny that it was them whenever someone accuses them of such acts, and even if ‘everyone knows’, that isn’t proof; and even if it was proved, what then? Since when does any nation need proof to do anything? See last year’s hilarious ACORN video expose, the invasion of Iraq or the Vietnam War if you need to research the subject of taking action without any proof. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/84 "2010-02-18T21:24:55Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > I know for an absolute fact that the UK, France, or Germany (and Ireland) have no interest whatso-ever in turing Israel into a pariah state. That is why Israel will back down to their demands. These countries will get assurances from Israel that their passports are off limits. Israel will agree. That is what will happen. I think you’re close, but not quite right. Israel is not going to officially confirm or deny involvement in this incident. If pushed, they may say something like “Well, we do not admit responsibility, but we will consider your request when planning future operations…if we ever plan any future operations, by intelligence agents we may or may not have.” And then, if they get another shot at a high value target, they will take him out by any means necessary, and pay lip service to the diplomats as needed. Behind the scenes, the conversation will likely be a little less formal: UK: Goddammit, don’t embarrass us this way. It’s bloody inconvenient. But, unofficially and on the “down low” as the Yanks say, nice job. Israel: Yes, Ma’am, your Queen-y-ness. We won’t never ever do that again. (Wink, nudge, fingers crossed, etc) ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/85 "2010-02-18T21:28:00Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Since when does any nation need proof to do anything? See last year’s hilarious ACORN video expose, the invasion of Iraq or the Vietnam War if you need to research the subject of taking action without any proof. Seems to me that if actual proof or lack thereof makes no difference, that’s hardly an argument in favour of not committing the act, realism-wise. You will be blamed whether you commit the act or not, every time one of these shady mooks meets a gory end. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/86 "2010-02-18T21:35:53Z")
> [@](#): > > You can call it goalpost shifting all you want, but if the only real argument against this practice (it will endanger civilians) is shown to be non-existent and there are no other real arguments, then “does this have any actual negatives?” is not goalpost shifting at all. Piss poor argument here, what you are saying is immoral, in that it lacks a moral compass, and is mechanistic. In one very serious sense, the risk posed to the passport holders is a side issue. What we have is one nation deciding to carry out extrajudicial killings (murder) and on the territory of other nations. In other words, Israel is prepared to follow the law when it suits them. I don’t care how many other killings have ocurred, by other nations, heck I would not be surprised to find the UK had done it, and I would be utterly amazed to find the US has not done it, but it still is not within the law, not domestic, not international. If this were legal, then there would not have been an undercover element. It does not matter which country does it, this is still a crime, it was not judicially endorsed and there was no due process. We are civilised or we are not, clearly Israel has signalled its intent, to follow the rule of law when it is convenient. What we have is a self perpertuating justification for both sides of this divide to continue, and it cannot ever end, all Israel has done is feed the monster.The lot of them should probably go back to herding sheep, living in tents and roaming the deserts, they have not gotten past incidents that took place thousands of years ago, maybe they should live in the same way, the rest of the world hopes to move on. So we drop down to the level of our enemies, is that the position you wish to hold? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/87 "2010-02-18T21:41:22Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > what you are saying is immoral, in that it lacks a moral compass, and is mechanistic. Go back to talking about the ZOG. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/88 "2010-02-18T21:42:37Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I think you’re close, but not quite right. Israel is not going to officially confirm or deny involvement in this incident. If pushed, they may say something like “Well, we do not admit responsibility, but we will consider your request when planning future operations…if we ever plan any future operations, by intelligence agents we may or may not have.” And then, if they get another shot at a high value target, they will take him out by any means necessary, and pay lip service to the diplomats as needed. > > Behind the scenes, the conversation will likely be a little less formal: > > UK: Goddammit, don’t embarrass us this way. It’s bloody inconvenient. But, unofficially and on the “down low” as the Yanks say, nice job. > > Israel: Yes, Ma’am, your Queen-y-ness. We won’t never ever do that again. (Wink, nudge, fingers crossed, etc) I think you’re painting a more rosy picture of their working relationship because you greatly approve of what Israel did, I don’t think most citizens of these countries would agree with you. To the English, French, German, Irish people the death of Mahmoud al-Mabhouh means little to nothing, while the sovereignty (pumped chest, nationalistic flag waving) of their passports/country means a whole lot more (this is the same with Israelis and all other people). The governments’ will act/respond to this in a reasonable and measured way that includes getting Israel to stop forging their passports. Israel will move on, and the European nations will move on. Everyone will stay friends. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/89 "2010-02-18T21:46:14Z")
> [@](#): > > What is your take on targeted killings of specific folks your country does not like via remote drones? State-sponsored terrorism or not? There is some differance, we are at war in Afghanistan, and wether I like it or not, the Taliban were actively supporting terrorists, who you will note have murdered people in the UK, Spain and a host of other countries. We had an international mandate to take part in this Afghani war, nor was there any false justification. The UK has not used the territory of a third nation to carry this out, and it does not deny its actions either, this is not covert action. The problem with drones is simple, its all too easy to kill innocents, especially on the basis of false intelligence, but the main thing is this, the process is overseen and individuals are held to account. Now if you had mentioned Iraq, well that is differant again, because it was all a lie, and I will sure hold them to account in a couple of months in our elections, I wish I could do more - posting on message boards is one very small thing. In the case of the Iraq war, the leaders who made those decisions should be in the Hague, and they should be held to account. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/90 "2010-02-18T21:50:39Z")
> [@](#): > > Go back to talking about the ZOG. Sorry, I shall make my future posts far more simple, I had not realised your understanding was so limited, my bad. The utility argument is not a very good way to run a nation. I’m so sorry that you cannot grasp this, my condolances. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/91 "2010-02-18T21:54:33Z")
No, seriously, don’t bother with these silly flames about how my ability to understand you is somehow limited. Just go back to talking about the ZOG. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/92 "2010-02-18T21:55:17Z")
I’ve got no problem with the Israelis taking this guy out. I have a problem with them increasing the danger for British citizens in how they did it, and also in them breaking a direct promise given to the UK in the 1980s that they would not again use British passports for undercover operations. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/93 "2010-02-18T21:56:49Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > There is some differance, we are at war in Afghanistan, and wether I like it or not, the Taliban were actively supporting terrorists, who you will note have murdered people in the UK, Spain and a host of other countries. It is bizzare to me to make any great distinction between Hamas and the taliban. > [@](#): > > We had an international mandate to take part in this Afghani war, nor was there any false justification. > > The UK has not used the territory of a third nation to carry this out, and it does not deny its actions either, this is not covert action. What of the killings in Pakistan - is that not a ‘third nation’? Indeed, a friendly one? > [@](#): > > Missiles from a US drone flying over South Waziristan in Pakistan’s tribal region are believed to have killed Baitullah Mehsud, the Pakistani Taliban chief last year. Highly publicised CIA attacks on Taliban and al-Qaida suspects on both sides of the Pakistan-Aghanistan border have been criticised for killing civilian bystanders and violating Pakistan’s sovereignty. > > The MoD says there have been no reports of RAF drones killing civilians. I see no effective difference between the killing of Mr. Mehsud and the one under discussion here. The article does not say whether or not the UK has carried out such attacks, merely that they have “no reports of killing civilians”. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/94 "2010-02-18T22:00:59Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > It is bizzare to me to make any great distinction between Hamas and the taliban. Well, to be fair there are a lot of distinctions. But none that really matter when we’re discussing if the factions are valid targets and whether or not removing them with zero civilian casualties is better or worse than removing them with some (perhaps lots) of collateral damage. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/95 "2010-02-18T22:01:50Z")
> [@villa](#): > > I’ve got no problem with the Israelis taking this guy out. I have a problem with them increasing the danger for British citizens in how they did it, and also in them breaking a direct promise given to the UK in the 1980s that they would not again use British passports for undercover operations. Meh. IF this was a Mossad Operation–and despite many claims in this thread that it was, that has not been established–they’ll likely not use UK passports for another 20-30 years or so, unless they really need to do it. In which case they will, and nothing much will be done about it then either. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/96 "2010-02-18T22:03:35Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Well, to be fair there are a lot of distinctions. But none that really matter when we’re discussing if the factions are valid targets and whether or not removing them with zero civilian casualties is better or worse than removing them with some (perhaps lots) of collateral damage. True 'nuff. What I meant was ‘for this purpose’. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/97 "2010-02-18T22:03:44Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Seems to me that if actual proof or lack thereof makes no difference, that’s hardly an argument in favour of not committing the act, realism-wise. You will be blamed whether you commit the act or not, every time one of these shady mooks meets a gory end. If you don’t commit the act, what will you (or anyone else) be blamed for? Obviously if a murder is committed the authorities present will try and establish who is responsible. What blame would there be for a non-murder, and why? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/98 "2010-02-18T22:06:29Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > If you don’t commit the act, what will you (or anyone else) be blamed for? I’d point you to “The Philadelphia Experiment”, the “Zionists who control America”, “Chemtrails”, “Israeli sex gum and evil killer rats” and so on. Nothing has to actually even exist for people to invent nefarious details about it. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/99 "2010-02-18T22:09:02Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > If you don’t commit the act, what will you (or anyone else) be blamed for? > > Obviously if a murder is committed the authorities present will try and establish who is responsible. What blame would there be for a non-murder, and why? You don’t get it. For guys like this murder is an occupational hazard. They fight among themselves and have lots of nasty external enemies, including the Mossad. If actual proof as to whether the Mossad did any particular murder is essentially irrelevant for blaming them and taking action against Israel, then what is to stop the Mossad from being blamed every single time one of these shady types ends up spectacularly dead, and no obvious suspect is collared? And if so, why should the Mossad _not_ carry out such operations - if they are to be blamed anyway? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2010, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/100 "2010-02-18T22:24:08Z")
For example (from White Civil Rights :rolleyes:) [ > [@](#): > > Was Yasir Arafat Poisoned by the Jews? > An analysis of the confidential medical report on Yasir Arafat’s death has raised the Israel’s Apartheid Wall possibility that the late Palestinian resistance leader was poisoned. The bandit state of Israel has countered with a claim, offered without substantiation of any kind, that Arafat died of AIDS (which has been mindlessly repeated by several Israel-first neocon talk show hacks). ]([Breaking Down Barriers: The Fight for Racial Equality](http://www.whitecivilrights.com/?p=158)) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459.md?page=6)