# So if Mossad used UK passports whats the correct response? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 18, 2010, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459 "2010-02-18T12:33:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/121 "2010-02-19T06:14:41Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > And it can’t just be okay for the people you like. Well, yes, actually it can. Ignoring false moral equivalencies is what all judgment and justice is based on. A police officer can arrest you, you cannot arrest a police officer. A judge can put you in jail for the rest of your life, you cannot imprison a judge for the rest of his life. Terrorists can be picked off as they’re found but they do not have the right to kill anybody, at all. Likewise, as (for some bizarre reason) has to continually be pointed out, Iran would have no problems if it simply dropped its sponsorship of groups like Hezbollah and Hamas. The idea that someone can sponsor terrorists to attack another country without any provocation and that then makes the leadership of the country you’re attacking fair game is… odd. It’s just kinda wonky to arm genocidal racists who reject even the possibility of peace and target civilians as their MO, and then when the country you use those terrorists against gets annoyed at you, declare that their leaders are now fair game because of how badly you’re threatened. > [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > It is called terrorism when people on the side that is in power are killed. No, it’s not. It’s called terrorism when you target civilians in order to spread fear/terror among a populace, especially if you’re doing so in order to cause a political change. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/122 "2010-02-19T06:23:45Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > And it can’t just be okay for the people you like. If Israel can covertly murder individuals in other nations, why shouldn’t Iran be justified in taking out hawkish high ranking Israeli figures and Massad agents visiting others countries. After all those people offer a credible threat to Iran and its citizens. I’m not entirely sure, but aren’t Israel and Hamas essentially at war with each other while Iran and Israel are not? Btw, Israel isn’t a threat to Iran and its citizens. Iran (its leaders) is the only threat to itself and its citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/123 "2010-02-19T06:25:52Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Yeah well…as I noted in my earlier post, proceeding on the assumption that they (Israeli intelligence / govt) were and are involved…which doesn’t really seem to be in doubt at the moment, whether they are admitting it or not… > > But nice attempt to divert attention and avoid the questions and implications surrounding such an action It’s not a diversion. There are no “questions and implications” when there is no proof of responsibility. As I said in an earlier post, the Palestinian Authority has both motive and opportunity for this killing. It’s absurd to say that it doesn’t really seem to be in doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/124 "2010-02-19T06:38:52Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Well, yes, actually it can. Ignoring false moral equivalencies is what all judgment and justice is based on. A police officer can arrest you, you cannot arrest a police officer. A judge can put you in jail for the rest of your life, you cannot imprison a judge for the rest of his life. Terrorists can be picked off as they’re found but they do not have the right to kill anybody, at all. Except Israel isn’t international law and it isn’t the judge. I can’t decide the law doesn’t apply to me because I think my neighbor is a bastard. Neither should Israel be able to. > [@](#): > > Likewise, as (for some bizarre reason) has to continually be pointed out, Iran would have no problems if it simply dropped its sponsorship of groups like Hezbollah and Hamas. The idea that someone can sponsor terrorists to attack another country without any provocation and that then makes the leadership of the country you’re attacking fair game is… odd. It’s just kinda wonky to arm genocidal racists who reject even the possibility of peace and target civilians as their MO, and then when the country you use those terrorists against gets annoyed at you, declare that their leaders are now fair game because of how badly you’re threatened. If only Iran would do exactly what you wanted them to do they would no problems at all. Just like if Israel did everyone Iran, and by extension the groups you mentioned, I’m sure Iran would be happy to limit their animosity. Yeah, Hamas’s actions have resulted in a lot of death’s of innocents. You know who else’s actions have? I’ll let you figure that one out on your own. Without provocation? The two sides do nothing but provoke each other. The constant threats to Iran are virtual hugs to you? > [@](#): > > No, it’s not. It’s called terrorism when you target civilians in order to spread fear/terror among a populace, especially if you’re doing so in order to cause a political change. I like the political change part. It is an elegant way of saying that people in charge can’t be terrorists, because their targets lack regimes. But really if Barack Obama was killed by a muslim tomorrow, you don’t think it would widely be considered terrorism. I also reject your statement that people who target civilians goal mostly desire the spread fear and terror. They tend to have much more specific goals, and often limited means of carrying out. They aren’t capable of bringing an army against Israel, so they do what they can. Mind you it isn’t a great plan, but it isn’t really much different from most rebellions, albeit it with a little more blowing ones self up. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/125 "2010-02-19T06:43:20Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > I’m not entirely sure, but aren’t Israel and Hamas essentially at war with each other while Iran and Israel are not? > > Btw, Israel isn’t a threat to Iran and its citizens. Iran (its leaders) is the only threat to itself and its citizens. Is it? I would tend to doubt Israel ever officially declared war on the group, but I don’t know. At any rate, i highly doubt that if the guy who was killed happened to be an Iranian instead of a member of Hamas the arguments would be different. ---
**Author:** ![Shmendrik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Shmendrik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shmendrik)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/126 "2010-02-19T06:44:37Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > Yeah, Hamas’s actions have resulted in a lot of death’s of innocents. You know who else’s actions have? I’ll let you figure that one out on your own. Good old moral equivalence. Hamas’ entire strategy has consisted of deliberate attacks on innocent civilians. Regarding this specific killing, it’s worth pointing out that: [QUOTE=wikipedia] The Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades is listed as a terrorist organization by the European Union[1], the United States[2], Australia[3] and the United Kingdom[4]. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/127 "2010-02-19T06:52:31Z")
> [@Shmendrik](#): > > Good old moral equivalence. Hamas’ entire strategy has consisted of deliberate attacks on innocent civilians. Again I don’t think they are deliberately attacking civilians. They don’t have the capacity to attack anything else, so that is what they go after . Israel has the ability to go after Hamas’s leadership, so that is what they do. Israel does manage to take out an awful lot of civilians in the process though. Hamas isn’t right to do what they do, but they also aren’t uniquely evil. If the goal of Israel is to be slightly more moral than Hamas, I believe they have accomplished that. I think they should aim higher. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/128 "2010-02-19T07:02:04Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > I can’t decide the law doesn’t apply to me because I think my neighbor is a bastard. Neither should Israel be able to. International law is only relevant as far as nations decide to be bound by it. > [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > If only Iran would do exactly what you wanted them to do they would no problems at all. Interesting. I point out that Iran arms, funds, trains and gives safe haven to genocidal racists who have stated that they will never accept peace, want to wipe Israel out and kill Jews wherever they are found. I then point out that Iran could stop any problems it has with Israel by simply ceasing to attack it via proxy forces, and you act as if that’s some sort of unreasonable demand. And you go even further and try to equate “Gee, stop attacked us with completely unprovoked attacks targeted against our civilians” with “now do everything we say!” > [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > Yeah, Hamas’s actions have resulted in a lot of death’s of innocents. You know who else’s actions have? I’ll let you figure that one out on your own. Sure, I can figure out on my own that you have deliberately left off “resulted in the death’s of a lot of innocents [due to their policy of deliberately targeting innocents rather than military targets much of the time]”. And no, nobody else involved targets civilians. Well, unless you’re also mentioning Hezbollah, and then we can add them in with Hamas. > [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > Without provocation? You have are now engaged in rhetorical contortionism to support your bogus moral relativism. Iran, totally unprovoked, supports genocidal racists who routinely target and murder Israeli civilians. Israel is, understandably, not happy about this. And you paint it as if Iran is some sort of victim and is under threat. It’s like someone walks up to a guy and keeps slugging him in the nose, and then complains that the guy is glowering at him and he’s simply not safe, so he keeps slugging him in the nose. It’s also worth noting that Israel has attacked Iran a grand total of zero times. How many times have Iran’s proxy forces attacked Israel? > [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > I like the political change part. It is an elegant way of saying that people in charge can’t be terrorists, because their targets lack regimes. No, no it’s not. I’m not even sure how you missed the point so egregiously. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/129 "2010-02-19T07:10:56Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > Again I don’t think they are deliberately attacking civilians. You are entitled to your own opinions. You are not entitled to your own facts. > [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > They don’t have the capacity to attack anything else, so that is what they go after . It’s also poor form to contradict yourself one sentence to the next. Which is it? They don’t target civilians or they can’t stand up to Israel’s military so they instead target civilians? > [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > Israel does manage to take out an awful lot of civilians in the process though. Could that be because Hamas uses human shields and doesn’t wear uniforms? Even still, it should not be ignored that during the recent war against Hamas, Israel ran one of the cleanest campaigns in history (despite the wailing and gnashing of teeth). Even in a densely populated area the casualty count put out by the Palestinians themselves showed that there were remarkably few civilians killed per each combatant. > [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > Hamas isn’t right to do what they do, but they also aren’t uniquely evil. No, they’re about at the level of the Klan while they were actively hanging blacks or neo-Nazis assuming they ever gained power again. They reject all possibilities of peace or compromise, demand theocracy, target civilians, preach racism and hate and endorse genocide in their founding document. You might want to try for stronger verbiage than “not right in what they do”. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/130 "2010-02-19T07:12:45Z")
**FinnAgain** , I’m curious: would you hold that the murder of the US President was an acceptable (or at least understandable) action if it were carried out by a team from, say, Nicaragua? How about Russia? China? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/131 "2010-02-19T07:17:32Z")
There is a difference between the head of state of a nation and a terrorist. As there is a difference between the dynamic of states that are at war with terrorists and other nations, like Russia, China, etc… which are not at war with the US. If you really want to construct something like an accurate hypothetical though, assuming that the US was involved in a war with another nation, then yes, every single valid military target would be fair game. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/132 "2010-02-19T07:21:20Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > There is a difference between the head of state of a nation and a terrorist. As there is a difference between the dynamic of states that are at war with terrorists and other nations, like Russia, China, etc… which are not at war with the US. > > If you really want to construct something like an accurate hypothetical though, assuming that the US was involved in a war with another nation, then yes, every single valid military target would be fair game. But that’s not what I asked you. Let’s just say, for the sake of this hypothetical, that there was good, clear evidence that the POTUS had approved a plan, and it was enacted, to secretly supply arms and training to a group that then slaughtered civilians and laid waste to the countryside in their own nation (not the USA). If the government of that country then sent in an assassination squad and killed him, would you be okay with that? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/133 "2010-02-19T07:25:35Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > But that’s not what I asked you. I know. I pointed out that your hypothetical was a non sequitor/false analogy and explained a way to fix it and what my response would be if you constructed a valid analogy that you used as an hypothetical. If you really want you can come up with several dozen variations on ‘wage war on’ and my answer will be the same: with a valid casus belli then every valid military target, including the president, is fair game. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/134 "2010-02-19T07:56:43Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I know. I pointed out that your hypothetical was a non sequitor/false analogy and explained a way to fix it and what my response would be if you constructed a valid analogy that you used as an hypothetical. If you really want you can come up with several dozen variations on ‘wage war on’ and my answer will be the same: with a valid casus belli then every valid military target, including the president, is fair game. But you also said some things that aren’t true, like: > [@FinnAgain](#): > > There is a difference between the head of state of a nation and a terrorist. Clearly that isn’t true. Wasn’t Yassar Arafat a terrorist? If the situation I described in my hypothetical, a group killing civilians with arms and training supplied by the US in order to change their native countries government, is terrorism (and it certainly fits the description you gave, then isn’t the US a terrorist nation, and by default, isn’t the POTUS the head terrorist? Or if it is true, then **Hawkeyeop** was correct when he said that in your view, > [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > I like the political change part. It is an elegant way of saying that people in charge can’t be terrorists, because their targets lack regimes. You said that wasn’t the case, but you seem to be contradicting yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Abe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f1d935/32.png) [@Abe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/135 "2010-02-19T08:11:46Z")
Great to see how people can justify and rationalize any actions (no matter how harmful or reckless) as long as they conform to their moral compass. On a diplomatic level this was a colossal blunder, however diplomatic channels are largely opaque to the public so that’s somewhat murky territory. I am reasonably sure that no one will be very happy behind the scenes. In terms of costs and benefits, the situation is bad _for everyone_: to assassinate one easily replaceable member of Hamas, Israel triggered an international incident and will now face increased isolation, appallingly negative PR, popular backlash (domestic and international), potential reprisals, and even further damage to the reputation of the country as well as of Israelis and Jews in general, which is probably the most unfortunate (and longest lasting) aspect of this idiotic project. As for the gleeful cheerleading of some posters over this incident… I know such nonsense is to be expected, but it would be so nice if you guys could try to put aside the six-shooters and cowboy hats and heavily sugared drinks for just a few moments. Whether you think the assassination was a wonderful event - as several obviously do - is not relevant to the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/136 "2010-02-19T08:15:43Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > But you also said some things that aren’t true, like We were discussing the US’ head of state and terrorists, you can’t (validly) take comments totally out of context and claim that specific contextual statements are actual global absolutes. I am not responsible for Hawk’s dramatic misreading of my text or your stange idea that if a state engages in terrorism that means I’m somehow agreeing that “people in charge can’t be terrorists, because their targets lack regimes.” That doesn’t even make _sense_. Semantically, it means nothing. It’s a small step up from word salad. Someone who murders gay people and displays the corpses in town square as a warning is a terrorist even if there’s no “gay regime”. A politican who maintains power by murdering his opposition and leaving their heads on pikes in front of his palace is engaged in terrorism, even if the opposition doesn’t have a “regime”. To argue otherwise is bonkers bazooie weird. And while I"m at it, I am also not responsible for the fact that you believe I’ve somehow contradicted myself when I have not uttered one jot of contradictory argumentation. I’m not sure what you’re misunderstanding, or where, but my argument is very simple and I’ve elaborated on it a few times. Why don’t you point out what’s confusing you and I can try to clear up your concerns. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/137 "2010-02-19T08:20:34Z")
George Washington? Terrorist. Nelson Mandela? Terrorist. Mao? Heck of a terrorist. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/138 "2010-02-19T08:20:45Z")
> [@Abe](#): > > further damage to the reputation of the country as well as of Israelis and Jews in general Ahhh, the good old “Israel is the cause of anti-semitism!” meme. Always a classic. > [@Abe](#): > > Whether you think the assassination was a wonderful event - as several obviously do - is not relevant to the discussion. No, you can’t declare by fiat that the justification, ramifications and morality of the event are irrelevant in a discussion of the justification, ramifications and morality of the event. As I’ve said, and as I maintain, assassination is virtually always more moral, more efficient and more pragmatic than war or sanctions which are, at best, somewhat indiscriminate and sloppy. Avoding conflict/war/sanctions via targeted killings is much more moral than the alternatives. By far. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/139 "2010-02-19T08:21:58Z")
George Washington? Terrorist. Nelson Mandela? Terrorist. Mao? Heck of a terrorist. ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459/140 "2010-02-19T08:32:09Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Seeing as the UAE doesn’t recognize Israel’s existence, has no diplomatic relations with it and doesn’t allow bearers of Israeli passports to enter the country, I’d hardly call it “neutral”. If it wants respect, maybe it should show some. > > First of all, nobody thinks the Brits are behind this, and nobody thinks that the Mossad - if they are indeed behind this - will be using British passports again in the near future. So there’s no real risk involved. And seeing as the UK is the currently the most virulently anti-Israeli country in Europe, and has even gone so far as to attempt to arrest Israeli officers and politicians, maybe they deserved to have their noses tweaked a bit. An alliance works both ways. Really? I don’t keep up with foreign politics much, but I don’t recall ever reading anything anti Israel in the press, nor do I recall anything in the way of anti-Israel policies. In what way is the UK _virulently_ anti-Israel? This is a genuine question by the way, any perceived snarkiness is purely accidental. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-mossad-used-uk-passports-whats-the-correct-response/529459.md?page=8)