So if Mossad used UK passports whats the correct response?

[Marley23]

[Mod Hat On]

@casdave

I am not in the practice of kindergarten debating but it seems this is not the position of everyone in this thread. There is one notable exception.

@FinnAgain

Go back to talking about the ZOG.

@casdave

Sorry, I shall make my future posts far more simple, I had not realised your understanding was so limited, my bad.

casdave, insults to other posters aren’t allowed here. FinnAgain, the ‘ZOG’ stuff is not helping. Both of you please drop this.

[/Mod Hat Off]

[Honesty]

@Oakminster

Meh. IF this was a Mossad Operation–and despite many claims in this thread that it was, that has not been established–they’ll likely not use UK passports for another 20-30 years or so, unless they really need to do it. In which case they will, and nothing much will be done about it then either.

Are you serious? Look, if Israel promised Britain that it won’t use forged passports then it should - out of respect - keep that promise. The fact that Israel did it again is giving the British the metaphorical middle finger. Israel is so consistently sloppy in everything done militarily outside their borders that they probably even didn’t intend to break the promise to the Britain. I suspect that if the Mossad were informed about Israel’s previous agreements that they probably would not have used forged British passports. Think about this: how ballsy is it to send some agents in a hotel laden with cameras and expect not for them to get recognized and caught? I don’t care that this dude was killed (good riddance) but the fact that Israeli intelligence didn’t even attempt to avoid or disarm the cameras before the hit just makes me chuckle inside. Now the whole wide world has seen a real-life operation on their television sets. How do you wish that away?

• Honesty

[Shmendrik]

I’m missing something about the “neutral ground” issue here. Dubai allowed al-Mabhouh into their country. He’s a leader of an internationally recognized terrorist group, Izz ad-Din al-Qassam. Ergo, they are harboring a terrorist, and shouldn’t feel especially offended that someone chose to bump him off on their territory.

[Paul_in_Qatar]

@The_Flying_Dutchman

Well cry me a river. Let’s help these Muslim’s recognize the Israeli-English. Just what is an Israeli citizen to do if he wants to travel in a Muslim country. Either he is denied access or he’s made himself a target with his Israeli passport .

Meanwhile an Arab desirous of a quick shopping trip to Tel Aviv is to do what?

@The_Flying_Dutchman

Things are quite different with our Arab populations here on Earth. Of 22 countries in the Arab League only two have recognized Israel’s right to exist.

So we are agreed that the vast majority of all Arabs are at peace with Israel? Good, perhaps we can then move on.

@The_Flying_Dutchman

Why do Israelis no longer travel to Egypt on your planet?

Dunno. I haven’t been to Sharm in years.

[Shmendrik]

@jjimm

I agree that if you wanted to frame Mossad it was a very good job. Pretty damn skilful for someone outside Israel to get hold of all those passports located in Israel to clone, though.

So, with Occam sitting on my shoulder, which anti-Hamas group, almost certainly possessing agents within Israel’s borders, has those sorts of mad skillz?

The Palestinian Authority. The Israeli Interior Ministry has plenty of Israeli-Arab employees. So far, the only suspects arrested have been PA-associated.

[The_Flying_Dutchman]

@Paul_in_Qatar

Meanwhile an Arab desirous of a quick shopping trip to Tel Aviv is to do what?

Go shopping ! One in five Israelis are Arabs

So we are agreed that the vast majority of all Arabs are at peace with Israel? Good, perhaps we can then move on.

Well, if you describe the Cold War between the Soviet Union and the West as a time of peace

[lisiate]

@orcenio

Israel has hadrows with Canada and New Zealand for using/obtaining Canuck/Kiwi passports for their spy operations. Israel had promised that they would not do that again for these countries.

Well New Zealand cancelled all official engagements with Israel and required Israeli diplomats to apply for visas for a few months after the conviction of two Israeli nationals for attempting to apply for a New Zealand passport back in 2004. Wikipedia has a decent overview but no pictures of the two. There’s one in the BBC link in the third footnote though.

[Todderbob]

I have a quick question; Why is everyone assuming that some of these countries didn’t approve of letting Israel use their nationals passports?

They get to deny it publicly, should it come out, they get brownie points from Israel (who has an extensive intelligence service in one of the most violent and volatile regions of the world) and they make a minor stink about it and drop the issue.

[Banquet_Bear]

@lisiate

Well New Zealand cancelled all official engagements with Israel and required Israeli diplomats to apply for visas for a few months after the conviction of two Israeli nationals for attempting to apply for a New Zealand passport back in 2004. Wikipedia has a decent overview but no pictures of the two. There’s one in the BBC link in the third footnote though.

…the details of this case are particularly galling.

How the trap was sprung - New Zealand News - NZ Herald

A quadriplegic, wheelchair-bound cerebral palsy sufferer was the victim of an alleged plot by Israelis looking to secure a New Zealand passport.

They were caught the “old-fashioned” way…

Ian Tingey, an investigations officer with Internal Affairs, said that the applicant had a Canadian or American accent. “When I quizzed him on his accent his explanantion to me was he had not travelled or held a New Zealand passport before but had spent a lot of time in New Zealand with Canadian friends and family.”

The officer said that he spoke to the father of the person named in the application who said his son was wheelchair bound and in residential care. Police were tipped off and a covert operation was set up.

[orcenio]

@orcenio

I think you’re painting a more rosy picture of their working relationship because you greatly approve of what Israel did, I don’t think most citizens of these countries would agree with you. To the English, French, German, Irish people the death of Mahmoud al-Mabhouh means little to nothing, while the sovereignty (pumped chest, nationalistic flag waving) of their passports/country means a whole lot more (this is the same with Israelis and all other people). The governments’ will act/respond to this in a reasonable and measured way that includes getting Israel to stop forging their passports. Israel will move on, and the European nations will move on. Everyone will stay friends.

As it turns out Israel has used British passports before and assured the UK that they would stop it. This could get a lot more messy than I first thought…

[FinnAgain]

There may even be tisking.

[bengangmo]

The New Zealand case was amazingly supid, offensive and I would like to have seen a stronger action taken against Israel

Secondly, (to me) by “allowing”* Israel to use the passports many people are going to assume you condone, and even support the action.

Thirdly, if you want to off the guy on foreign soil, that is one thing. But to steal from and cheat a friend to do it is another matter all together. I would love to see the Poms actually grow a set and do something to Israel, after all - if Israel doesn’t respect them, and can’t keep their promises - then what the hell should England / UK show any respect at all or Israel?

If a little pimple like New Zealand that does not even qualify as a featherweight on the international stage sanction Israel, what more could England do to make sure that in the future Israel shows some basic level of respect to the laws and integrity of a neutral third party. (neutral in that they didn’t have a dog in the fight, it was not on their soil).

To be rather crude about it, Israel (assuming they are guilty) has metaphorically raped Engalnd, fucking them up the arse, and now everybody seems to be pretty much saying - “meh, don’t worry about it, you probably secretely wanted it anyway”

• If you don’t take an meaningful action to punish, it is the same as allow

[Paul_in_Qatar]

@The_Flying_Dutchman

Go shopping ! One in five Israelis are Arabs

May I very sincerely compliment you on getting me with that one? I wish I had remembered that. You well and truly scored a point with that one.

Now back to our regular programming.

[Paul_in_Qatar]

@bengangmo

Thirdly, if you want to off the guy on foreign soil, that is one thing. But to steal from and cheat a friend to do it is another matter all together. I would love to see the Poms actually grow a set and do something to Israel, after all - if Israel doesn’t respect them, and can’t keep their promises - then what the hell should England / UK show any respect at all or Israel?

I think this post cuts to the heart of the matter. Mostly, this is a crime against the UK. There is another offense against the UAE (and of course the person himself). But the thing that has caused all the fuss is the use of British passports.

[Shmendrik]

My prediction is that there will be no negative consequences for Israel unless more evidence emerges proving they did it. This case is very different from the New Zealand debacle, where Israeli agents were caught trying to fraudulently obtain passports.

[Paul_in_Qatar]

That is almost the point. There will be no negative consequences that are obvious. Israeli tourists will be examined more closely sometimes at customs. Israelis will less welcome in New Zealand. Jews applying for passports and visa will examined a bit more closely. People and governments will be a bit less likely to trust the Israelis.

Nothing big at all. Just a bit of grit in the gears of human interactions.

Israel will be a bit more isolated from everyone. They will never even know why.

[bengangmo]

@Shmendrik

. This case is very different from the New Zealand debacle, where Israeli agents were caught trying to fraudulently obtain passports.

But exactly how did they get the passports in the first place?

Either it was
a) fraudlent, in which case the UK was scewed
or
b) There was complicity from the UK, which puts a whole new complexion on the matter - and is part of the whole problem and why it is such a scumbag act on Israels part.
Even if England is 100% innocent, there are some who will believe they had a hand in this - which affects their relationships with the other involved countries. (or citizens of those countries).

[Shmendrik]

@bengangmo

But exactly how did they get the passports in the first place?

Either it was
a) fraudlent, in which case the UK was scewed
or
b) There was complicity from the UK, which puts a whole new complexion on the matter - and is part of the whole problem and why it is such a scumbag act on Israels part.
Even if England is 100% innocent, there are some who will believe they had a hand in this - which affects their relationships with the other involved countries. (or citizens of those countries).

You’ve skipped a step. There’s no proof that the Israeli government had anything to do with the killing or the use of the passports.

[bengangmo]

@Shmendrik

You’ve skipped a step. There’s no proof that the Israeli government had anything to do with the killing or the use of the passports.

Yeah well…as I noted in my earlier post, proceeding on the assumption that they (Israeli intelligence / govt) were and are involved…which doesn’t really seem to be in doubt at the moment, whether they are admitting it or not…

But nice attempt to divert attention and avoid the questions and implications surrounding such an action

[Hawkeyeop]

@Malthus

The real issue is whether killing people by covert means through the use of assassins is “okay”.

And it can’t just be okay for the people you like. If Israel can covertly murder individuals in other nations, why shouldn’t Iran be justified in taking out hawkish high ranking Israeli figures and Massad agents visiting others countries. After all those people offer a credible threat to Iran and its citizens.

Murder? Yes.

Terrorism? No.

Terrorism requires targeting innocents for political purposes.

Do you really think if a leader in the U.S. or Israel is assassinated it wouldn’t be considered terrorism? It is called terrorism when people on the side that is in power are killed.