# So if Tokyo Rose had broadcast from the USA... **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 10, 2018, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-tokyo-rose-had-broadcast-from-the-usa/825901 "2018-12-10T18:30:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-tokyo-rose-had-broadcast-from-the-usa/825901/1 "2018-12-10T18:30:47Z")
…would she have been protected by free speech laws. Yes, on one hand you could argue that she’s ‘lending aid to the enemy’. But she might be able to skirt that by expressing opinion and speculation. Different Q: Lets assume Lord Haw Haw was actually born in Ireland and broadcast from the US. Is he also protected? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-tokyo-rose-had-broadcast-from-the-usa/825901/2 "2018-12-10T18:57:55Z")
Radio broadcasting in the US is not covered under the 1st amendment As an example the case NBC vs. U.S. in 1943 > [@](#): > > Unlike other modes of expression, radio inherently is not available to all. That is its unique characteristic and that is why, unlike other modes of expression, it is subject to government regulation. Because it cannot be used by all, some who wish to use it must be denied. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-tokyo-rose-had-broadcast-from-the-usa/825901/3 "2018-12-10T19:21:16Z")
Law or no law, if she would have been found she would have been hanged and/or burned and/or shot. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-tokyo-rose-had-broadcast-from-the-usa/825901/4 "2018-12-10T19:30:50Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Radio broadcasting in the US is not covered under the 1st amendment > > As an example the case NBC vs. U.S. in 1943 That case gave the government power to regulate networks in addition to individual stations. It did not explicitly take away first amendment rights from those who spoke on the radio. The power was over the stations; they were the ones who could be fined or lose their licenses if they allowed unacceptable things to air. If someone swore during a program, the station was at fault: the government did not arrest or otherwise go after the speaker. On the flip side, treasonous remarks are not protected by the first amendment no matter how they are issued, in person, in print, or broadcast, even when first amendment rights otherwise apply. Which remarks are treasonous are decided by judges and juries. When you say Tokyo Rose you’re probably referring to Iva Toguri, who actually was convicted of treason. (Japan use a large number of female broadcasters, none of whom were known as Toyko Rose at the time.) It’s extremely doubtful anything she did was treasonous. She was not tried until 1949 when the growing McCarthy Era hysteria demanded a scapegoat. Since this was a show trial, it would presumably have convicted her even for American speech. But you really can’t build legal hypotheticals off a base where the law is too murky to have any meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-tokyo-rose-had-broadcast-from-the-usa/825901/5 "2018-12-10T19:36:16Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Law or no law, if she would have been found she would have been hanged and/or burned and/or shot. She was found, after the war. IIR Wiki correctly, she was convicted of treason, served six years of a ten year term, and then-President Ford pardoned her, based apparently on questions of the testimony at her trial. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-tokyo-rose-had-broadcast-from-the-usa/825901/6 "2018-12-10T19:36:27Z")
… she’d be Fox News. **JOKE!** [I thought I’d better add that.:eek:] ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-tokyo-rose-had-broadcast-from-the-usa/825901/7 "2018-12-10T19:39:32Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > She was found, after the war. IIR Wiki correctly, she was convicted of treason, served six years of a ten year term, and then-President Ford pardoned her, based apparently on questions of the testimony at her trial. > > Regards, > Shodan If she had been found _during the war_, _in the United States_. I didn’t think I would need to fill in those blanks so soon after the OP was posted, but apparently… ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-tokyo-rose-had-broadcast-from-the-usa/825901/8 "2018-12-10T20:16:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If she had been found _during the war_, _in the United States_. > I didn’t think I would need to fill in those blanks so soon after the OP was posted, but apparently… Or maybe not. She was held by the U.S. for a year after the war and let go because they had no evidence to convict her of anything. This is from the FBI website. > [@](#): > > In September 1945, after the press had reported that Aquino was Tokyo Rose, U.S. Army authorities arrested her. The FBI and the Army’s Counterintelligence Corps conducted an extensive investigation to determine whether Aquino had committed crimes against the U.S. By the following October, authorities decided that the evidence then known did not merit prosecution, and she was released. > > Before the year was out, Aquino again requested a U.S. passport. American veterans groups and noted broadcaster Walter Winchell learned of this and became outraged that the woman they thought of as “Tokyo Rose” wanted to return to this country. They demanded that the woman they considered a traitor be arrested and tried, not welcomed back. > > The public furor convinced the Justice Department that the matter should be re-examined, and the FBI was asked to turn over its investigative records on the matter. The FBI’s investigation of Aquino’s activities had covered a period of some five years. During the course of that investigation, the FBI had interviewed hundreds of former members of the U.S. Armed Forces who had served in the South Pacific during World War II, unearthed forgotten Japanese documents, and turned up recordings of Aquino’s broadcasts. Many of these recordings, though, were destroyed following the initial decision not to prosecute Aquino in 1946. > > The Department of Justice initiated further efforts to acquire additional evidence that might be sufficient to convict Aquino. It issued a press release asking all U.S. soldiers and sailors who had heard the Radio Tokyo propaganda broadcasts and who could identify the voice of the broadcaster to contact the FBI. Justice also sent one of its attorneys and reporter Harry Brundidge to Japan to search for other witnesses. Problematically, Brundidge enticed a former contact of his to perjure himself in the matter. > > With new witnesses and evidence, the U.S. Attorney in San Francisco convened a grand jury, and Aquino was indicted on a number of counts in September 1948. She was detained in Japan and brought under military escort to the U.S., arriving in San Francisco on September 25, 1948. There, she was immediately arrested by FBI agents, who had a warrant charging her with the crime of treason for adhering to, and giving aid and comfort to, the Imperial Government of Japan during World War II. tldr: If the government wants a show trial, it will convict you, even if it has to brush off some perjury to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-tokyo-rose-had-broadcast-from-the-usa/825901/9 "2018-12-10T20:30:05Z")
> **[Tokyo Rose](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokyo_Rose)** > > Tokyo Rose (alternative spelling Tokio Rose) was a name given by Allied troops in the South Pacific during World War II to all female English-speaking radio broadcasters of Japanese propaganda. The programs were broadcast in the South Pacific and North America to demoralize Allied forces abroad and their families at home by emphasizing troops' wartime difficulties and military losses. Several female broadcasters operated using different aliases and in different cities throughout the terr During t... > **[Iva Toguri D'Aquino](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iva_Toguri_D%27Aquino)** > > Iva Ikuko Toguri D'Aquino (Japanese: 戸栗郁子 アイバ; July 4, 1916 – September 26, 2006) was a Japanese-American disc jockey and radio personality who participated in English-language radio broadcasts transmitted by Radio Tokyo to Allied troops in the South Pacific during World War II on The Zero Hour radio show. > Toguri called herself "Orphan Ann", but she quickly became inaccurately identified with the name "Tokyo Rose", coined by Allied soldiers and which predated her broadcasts. After the surrende... > **[Lord Haw-Haw](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Haw-Haw)** > > Lord Haw-Haw was a nickname applied to William Joyce, who broadcast Nazi propaganda to the UK from Germany during the Second World War. The broadcasts opened with "Germany calling, Germany calling", spoken in an affected upper-class English accent. > The same nickname was also applied to some other broadcasters of English-language propaganda from Germany, but it is Joyce with whom the name is now overwhelmingly identified. > The English-language propaganda radio programme Germany Calling was bro... Historically, protections under the First Amendment are not as strong during wartime. Even if Tokyo Rose weren’t prosecuted for treason, she probably would have been interned along with the other Nisei until the end of the war. Lord Haw-Haw, if Irish as the OP says and making broadcasts injurious to Great Britain before the U.S. actually enters the war, is probably fine. After the U.S. enters the war and Great Britain requests he be forced from the air or extradited… maybe not so much. P.G. Wodehouse got into trouble for something similar: [P. G. Wodehouse - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P._G._Wodehouse#Second_World_War:_internment_and_broadcasts) ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-tokyo-rose-had-broadcast-from-the-usa/825901/10 "2018-12-10T20:35:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Law or no law, if she would have been found she would have been hanged and/or burned and/or shot. That’s what happened to Anwar al-Awlaki, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-tokyo-rose-had-broadcast-from-the-usa/825901/11 "2018-12-10T20:40:28Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > … she’d be Fox News. **JOKE!** > > [I thought I’d better add that.:eek:] **Moderator Warning** **Jasmine** , adding “joke” after a political jab doesn’t make it OK. This is yet another warning for political jabs in General Questions. Considering that you’ve been warned about this multiple times, your posting privileges will be under discussion. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![mako88sb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@mako88sb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mako88sb)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-tokyo-rose-had-broadcast-from-the-usa/825901/12 "2018-12-10T20:47:11Z")
On a related note, I read “Bringing the Thunder” by Gordon Bennett Robertson about his 35 missions in command of a B-29. I really enjoyed the book but I was pretty surprised, much like him no doubt, about how on the day he arrived at Guam, Tokyo Rose mentioned all the pilot’s names including him during her nightly broadcast. I always wondered about if the traitor that was providing such info to the Japanese was ever caught? It did eventually occur to me that it’s possible/likely that some subterfuge was involved here. Having someone seemingly sympathetic to the Japanese passing on relatively harmless info so that they can eventually pass on some juicy but misleading plans to help confuse the enemy. Just curious if anybody knows anything about this? ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-tokyo-rose-had-broadcast-from-the-usa/825901/13 "2018-12-10T21:02:18Z")
Also note that the now-famous phrase “You can’t yell FIRE in a crowded theatre” was written to justify stripping American anti-war activists of their citizenship and deporting them during (after) WWI for distributing material supporting a boycott of the draft, and the opinion was written by one on the most notable Supreme Court justices in history. First Amendment? What dat? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-tokyo-rose-had-broadcast-from-the-usa/825901/14 "2018-12-10T21:57:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If she had been found _during the war_, _in the United States_. > I didn’t think I would need to fill in those blanks so soon after the OP was posted, but apparently… I think it was clear the OP was asking whether or not her actions would have been legal. Your response seems to imply that she would have been lynched. If I misunderstood your response and you meant that she would have been convicted of a capital crime and then executed, I think it would be helpful to explain what law she would have been breaking. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-tokyo-rose-had-broadcast-from-the-usa/825901/15 "2018-12-10T22:01:13Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I think it was clear the OP was asking whether or not her actions would have been legal. Your response seems to imply that she would have been lynched. > > If I misunderstood your response and you meant that she would have been convicted of a capital crime and then executed, I think it would be helpful to explain what law she would have been breaking. I was stating my belief that the law wouldn’t have provided any real protection under the circumstances stated in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-tokyo-rose-had-broadcast-from-the-usa/825901/16 "2018-12-10T22:16:13Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I was stating my belief that the law wouldn’t have provided any real protection under the circumstances stated in the OP. Which is not really relevant to the question asked in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-tokyo-rose-had-broadcast-from-the-usa/825901/17 "2018-12-10T22:27:33Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Which is not really relevant to the question asked in the OP. “So if Tokyo Rose had broadcast from the USA… …_would she have been protected by free speech laws_.”(italics mine) I took the question literally. Whatever free speech laws there were, I don’t think they would have provided much protection if she had been found broadcasting in the U.S. during the war. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-tokyo-rose-had-broadcast-from-the-usa/825901/18 "2018-12-10T22:45:29Z")
A pro-Fascist U.S.-based broadcaster directly targeting American servicemen or potential recruits during WWII would likely have been charged with sedition at some point, even though there was a surprising amount of [tolerance](http://chicagounbound.uchicago.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2975&context=journal_articles) for speech opposing U.S. war policy (even pro-Fascist utterances), compared to the climate in WWI. _“(On 12/17/41 Attorney General Francis) Biddle directed all United States attorneys that prosecutions for “alleged seditious utterances must not be undertaken unless consent is first obtained from the Department of Justice.” A few days later, several men were arrested in Los Angeles for allegedly praising Hitler, stating that Japan had done a “good job” in the Pacific, asserting that “the Japanese had a right to Hawaii” because there “are more of them there than there are Americans,” and declaring that they would “rather be on the side of Germany than on the side of the British.” Another man, Ellis Jones, was arrested for saying that “the President should be impeached for asking Congress to declare war.” They were charged with violating the Espionage Act of 1917. Biddle immediately dismissed the charges, stating that free speech “ought not to be restricted” unless public safety is “directly imperiled.””_ The linked article notes that the most publicized trial of Fascist sympathizers in the U.S. during WWII (the “Great Sedition Trial” of 26 defendants) dragged on for four years (1942-46) and the cases were ultimately dismissed. \*apparently pro-Fascist expressions went underground a lot quicker in England, where (according to Len Deighton) people were arrested for saying things like “Hitler is a better man than Churchill”. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-tokyo-rose-had-broadcast-from-the-usa/825901/19 "2018-12-10T22:50:11Z")
Were there any cases involving Japanese or Americans of Japanese descent? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2018, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-tokyo-rose-had-broadcast-from-the-usa/825901/20 "2018-12-10T22:52:32Z")
> [@mako88sb](#): > > On a related note, I read “Bringing the Thunder” by Gordon Bennett Robertson about his 35 missions in command of a B-29. I really enjoyed the book but I was pretty surprised, much like him no doubt, about how on the day he arrived at Guam, Tokyo Rose mentioned all the pilot’s names including him during her nightly broadcast. I always wondered about if the traitor that was providing such info to the Japanese was ever caught? It did eventually occur to me that it’s possible/likely that some subterfuge was involved here. Having someone seemingly sympathetic to the Japanese passing on relatively harmless info so that they can eventually pass on some juicy but misleading plans to help confuse the enemy. Just curious if anybody knows anything about this? A Google search turned up somebody else answering this question and a response cited this old [SDSAB column](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1705/how-did-wwii-propaganda-broadcaster-tokyo-rose-get-info-on-allied-ship-movements/) asking a very similar question. It doesn’t really get answered. The closest Bruce approaches an answer is this: > [@](#): > > Iva Toguri and her associates gathered much of the news they broadcast listening to short-wave radio from the U.S. mainland. In that respect, we did “leak information like a sieve.” I can imagine many GIs thinking she seemed to know a lot about what was going on back home, but the information was available to anyone. Nothing about Robertson there or anywhere else. Old memories and old war stories are always suspect. Did such a “Tokyo Rose” broadcast with such specific information really take place? If it did, I’m guessing that the information was literally plucked from the air rather than being fed by an informant. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > “So if Tokyo Rose had broadcast from the USA… > …_would she have been protected by free speech laws_.”(italics mine) > I took the question literally. Whatever free speech laws there were, I don’t think they would have provided much protection if she had been found broadcasting in the U.S. during the war. Why do you think this? If a year’s investigation couldn’t find evidence of any crime committed what difference would it have made if the transaction took place in the U.S.? The Roses didn’t broadcast any secrets. They got their information from public sources. An amazing amount of confidential info got published or broadcast by U.S. sources during the war, without a single treason prosecution. Even for [this](https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/1977-09/freedom-press-or-treason): > [@](#): > > On 7 June 1942, The Chicago Tribune published an article entitled “Navy Had Word of Jap Plan to Strike at Sea.” Identical articles, with different headlines, appeared the same day in the New York Daily News and Washington Times-Herald. At the time these newspapers comprised what was called the McCormick-Patterson empire. > > For those readers under 30, the United States was at war with Japan; the Battle of Midway was still on; and the USS Yorktown (CV-5) was still afloat. > > An investigation revealed that the article was written by a Tribune correspondent, Stanley Johnston, and filed from Honolulu. There had been a serious error when, some months before, he had not been asked to sign accreditation papers as a war correspondent attached to the Navy. This freed him from submitting for censorship everything he wrote. Many people then and since considered printing that information treasonous. McCormick was an isolationist and a loud and bitter critic of everything Roosevelt did. He would have been an easy target, not to mention an object lesson for other publishers. Nothing happened. People kept publishing information about atomic bombs all through the war, even after a directive went out forbidding any mention of it or any related words. Several branches of military information and the FBI investigated them. Nobody was ever prosecuted. So I ask again. Why do you think that Tokyo Rose would have been prosecuted without committing any crime? And no, no treason cases involving Japanese citizens or non-citizens during the war. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-tokyo-rose-had-broadcast-from-the-usa/825901.md?page=2)