# So if we expect the Gun Rights people to chill out, shouldn't the same be done for the 4th....? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 10, 2013, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-we-expect-the-gun-rights-people-to-chill-out-shouldnt-the-same-be-done-for-the-4th/660627 "2013-06-10T15:44:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-we-expect-the-gun-rights-people-to-chill-out-shouldnt-the-same-be-done-for-the-4th/660627/121 "2013-06-17T09:35:55Z")
> [@fudrucker](#): > > I’m really stunned by this lack of common knowledge. Congress has been funding SS for years. It’s not my opinion, it’s a fact. It’s neither “common knowledge” nor is it true. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-we-expect-the-gun-rights-people-to-chill-out-shouldnt-the-same-be-done-for-the-4th/660627/122 "2013-06-17T10:01:29Z")
> [@fudrucker](#): > > Congress has been funding SS for years. It’s not my opinion, it’s a fact. A very well known fact. It’s in every fiscal budget. You are taking some true factoid and putting a ridiculous absurd spin on it. I’d love to help you fight your ignorance, but need a cite to know which little factoid you’re mis-spinning. ---
**Author:** ![fudrucker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fudrucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fudrucker)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-we-expect-the-gun-rights-people-to-chill-out-shouldnt-the-same-be-done-for-the-4th/660627/123 "2013-06-17T10:02:16Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It’s neither “common knowledge” nor is it true. Good grief guys. [Here’s](http://www.ssa.gov/budget/FY14Files/2014BST.pdf) the budget right from the SSA. Notice the proposed “appropriation” request. Payments to Social Security Trust Funds : 16,400,000 FY 2014 Request: 40,737,000,000 FY 2015 First Quarter Advance 19,700,000,000 Those requests and advances are deficits. The congress is borrowing money to fund SS. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-we-expect-the-gun-rights-people-to-chill-out-shouldnt-the-same-be-done-for-the-4th/660627/124 "2013-06-17T11:19:37Z")
> [@fudrucker](#): > > Good grief guys. Let’s work with very round figures. Because of demographic changes, it is now true that Social Security programs take in, in payroll taxes, only almost exactly as much as they pay out. _But they also receive interest, of over $100 billion annually, on Trust Fund assets, totalling over 2.6 teradollars, from prior years in surplus._ Thus, the SSTF still makes, in round figures, about $100 billion in “gross profit” per year. (Caveats: 1. The shortfall due to the temporary reduction in payroll tax, part of the Job Creation Act of 2010, is compensated from General Fund; this was a political decision. 2. By “Social Security” we mean Social Security, _not_ Social Security and Medicare.) Now it happens that the Social Security Administration has administrative expenses, and these are treated as “discretionary” general appropriations. Whether they should instead be subtracted from SSA’s revenue is a book-keeping detail. In round figures, the expense is 1% of total payments, or about 10% of their “gross profit.” _However, as just stated, this administrative cost will appear as a (discretionary) expense on the Federal budget._ It appears that it is this administrative cost that **fudrucker** refers to. Do you see that this expense, and the way it happens to appear on the budget, has absolutely nothing to do with SS solvency? Fudrucker quotes a 40 gigadollar request for 2014. This is much higher than administrative cost (though still much lower than SSTF “profit”)and I’m not sure what it is. I can see that it is only a budgeted ceiling. ---
**Author:** ![fudrucker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fudrucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fudrucker)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-we-expect-the-gun-rights-people-to-chill-out-shouldnt-the-same-be-done-for-the-4th/660627/125 "2013-06-17T12:12:26Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Thus, the SSTF still makes, in round figures, about $100 billion in “gross profit” per year. Not even remotely true. Social security benefits are more than 22% of federal expenditures. The trust fund is subsidized by the government borrowing money it doesn’t have. There is no such thing as a profitable government agency. These mythical profits are merely taxes collected from citizens. Worse yet, social security was supposed to be a self funded benefit collected by a so called payroll tax. In other words stealing. Taking the property of one person and giving it to someone to whom it does not belong. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-we-expect-the-gun-rights-people-to-chill-out-shouldnt-the-same-be-done-for-the-4th/660627/126 "2013-06-17T12:23:34Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Let me guess, you’re one of those silly “taxation is theft” types. > [@fudrucker](#): > > Worse yet, social security was supposed to be a self funded benefit collected by a so called payroll tax. In other words stealing. Taking the property of one person and giving it to someone to whom it does not belong. Well, that answers _that._ ---
**Author:** ![fudrucker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fudrucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fudrucker)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-we-expect-the-gun-rights-people-to-chill-out-shouldnt-the-same-be-done-for-the-4th/660627/127 "2013-06-17T12:57:02Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Well, that answers _that._ Yes it does. The definition of stealing has never changed. Neither have the moral consequences. It doesn’t matter if it’s committed by an individual or a government. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-we-expect-the-gun-rights-people-to-chill-out-shouldnt-the-same-be-done-for-the-4th/660627/128 "2013-06-17T13:01:27Z")
I guess you’re stealing public services then. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-we-expect-the-gun-rights-people-to-chill-out-shouldnt-the-same-be-done-for-the-4th/660627/129 "2013-06-17T13:04:32Z")
> [@fudrucker](#): > > Yes it does. The definition of stealing has never changed. Neither have the moral consequences. It doesn’t matter if it’s committed by an individual or a government. In other words, you’re either foolish enough to think that a civilized society can be run without taxes, or you’re a parasite who wants the benefits of such a society without paying for it. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-we-expect-the-gun-rights-people-to-chill-out-shouldnt-the-same-be-done-for-the-4th/660627/130 "2013-06-17T13:10:40Z")
Remember that he doesn’t like the police or military, so I guess he’s happy not to pay for them. He’s got a gun - that’s all the government he needs. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-we-expect-the-gun-rights-people-to-chill-out-shouldnt-the-same-be-done-for-the-4th/660627/131 "2013-06-17T13:22:32Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Remember that he doesn’t like the police or military, so I guess he’s happy not to pay for them. He’s got a gun - that’s all the government he needs. That would make it _“foolish enough to think that a civilized society can be run without taxes”,_ then. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-we-expect-the-gun-rights-people-to-chill-out-shouldnt-the-same-be-done-for-the-4th/660627/132 "2013-06-17T13:45:07Z")
> [@fudrucker](#): > > Not even remotely true. Social security benefits are more than 22% of federal expenditures. The trust fund is subsidized by the government borrowing money it doesn’t have. > > There is no such thing as a profitable government agency. These mythical profits are merely taxes collected from citizens. > > Worse yet, social security was supposed to be a self funded benefit collected by a so called payroll tax. In other words stealing. Taking the property of one person and giving it to someone to whom it does not belong. **fudrucker** , I’m not going to “debate” you. But I do want Dopers to be very clear on what you believe. In 2006, The S.S. Trust fund held 2.0 trillion dollars. In 2011, it held 2.7 trillion. Do you agree? Is it your claim that this $700 billion increase resulted from subsidies from the General Fund? Do you have even the tiniest itsy-bitsy clue of what you’re talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-we-expect-the-gun-rights-people-to-chill-out-shouldnt-the-same-be-done-for-the-4th/660627/133 "2013-06-17T20:59:32Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Licensing and registration has always been a pretext to deny licenses to all but the politically connected, and is being proposed exclusively by people whose goal is the confiscation of all privately held guns. No one is going to fall for it. Outside of places like NYC, I don’t know wtf you are talking about. I support licensing and registration and i vehemently oppose gun bans never mind confiscation. As long as you have “shall issue” license and registration, I don’t see the threat you are talking about. > [@fudrucker](#): > > True. But that isn’t the goal of big government liberals. They couldn’t care less about gun violence. They are out to control us and everything we do. Liberty and freedom are their enemies. They hate the very notion of them. > > If you browse this forum you will quickly recognize that. :rolleyes You have your reasons for supporting the second amendment, I have mine. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-we-expect-the-gun-rights-people-to-chill-out-shouldnt-the-same-be-done-for-the-4th/660627.md?page=6)