# So, If We Gave Every Household In The USA A FREE Electric Car **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 19, 2013, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-we-gave-every-household-in-the-usa-a-free-electric-car/663960 "2013-07-19T17:44:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-we-gave-every-household-in-the-usa-a-free-electric-car/663960/61 "2013-07-22T14:11:51Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > I’ll see if I can dig up that nice EIA plot showing what fuels go where. Unless you have it on hand. Here it is. I didn’t realize the 2012 Sankey diagram is out. > **[Flowcharts](https://flowcharts.llnl.gov)** ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-we-gave-every-household-in-the-usa-a-free-electric-car/663960/62 "2013-07-22T20:07:09Z")
In that diagram what does “rejected energy” mean? ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-we-gave-every-household-in-the-usa-a-free-electric-car/663960/63 "2013-07-22T20:15:50Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > In that diagram what does “rejected energy” mean? Energy lost to waste heat, friction, etc. e.g. an incandescent bulb loses ~98% of energy to heat; only a little goes to the intended purpose of illuminating your room. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-we-gave-every-household-in-the-usa-a-free-electric-car/663960/64 "2013-07-22T20:42:11Z")
Thanks. That’s what I had guessed but dayum. 61% of all energy generated is lost to waste. 67% of all electricity generated. And of petroleum energy used for transportation 85% is lost to waste. Wow. That’s the big deal with EVs: EVs convert electricity to motive force with roughly 59 to 62% efficiency; ICEs 15% per that diagram (and maybe 17 to 21% according to[fueleconomy.gov](http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evtech.shtml#end-notes)) ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-we-gave-every-household-in-the-usa-a-free-electric-car/663960/65 "2013-07-22T22:07:39Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > Driving on them seems problematic. > but what about rooftops? Mentioned upthread, but neglected. > Suppose every new roof, starting right now, had photovoltaic collectors on it. (Through some combination of carrots and sticks.) > > Current prices and efficiencies are such that it’s a losing proposition. > But manufacturing technologies improve constantly- as we make the solar cells, we’ll get better at making them. I’d recommend a two pronged approach. First, mandate high Solar Reflectance on new, or replacement, roofs. Not just a high R value(which is a combination of Reflectance, Emissivity, and insulation) but actual Reflectance. This raises the Albedo of the earth just slightly, and the sunlight being reflected back out of the atmosphere helps keep things from heating up as fast. This is the norm on commercial building already, but is not being used in residential neighborhoods much. The next step is to deploy the PVs(photovoltaic panels), as they get cheap enough. There are essentially two options. Making a big farm of PVs out in the desert somewhere and losing energy to transmission costs but being able to centralize the other infrastructure. The pros of this approach is it can be upgraded more easily as better power collection and distribution tech comes available. It doesn’t force homeowners to have PV on their roof. It can be maintained by professionals year-round. The downsides are the transmission and the enormous cost of such a farm. It also doesn’t really relieve the grid, it just puts some non-fossil fuel sources of energy into it. The second approach is more distributed. Each house gets a 1.5-2.5 KW solar install on the roof(not that big, easily fits on the average suburban roof) and it runs the daily stuff of the house. All those energy vampires, most of the time this system could keep up with refrigerators, washing machines. It’s clothes dryers and HVAC that it would have trouble with. It could even charge the typical plug-in vehicle without drawing any power from the grid. The pros of this is we generate the power where we need it. No significant loss in transmission, and a huge weight off the grid. The downsides are many though. All those installs. Batteries to charge up in each house(solar systems typically charge batteries and the house runs off batteries). Homeowner level maintenance. Odds are we wouldn’t feed that much back into the grid, but if we did we’d have hundreds of thousands of new “generation stations” we’d have to track and account for. It’s no wonder people are beginning to look seriously at GeoEngineering, although that scares the crap out of me. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-we-gave-every-household-in-the-usa-a-free-electric-car/663960/66 "2013-07-22T22:10:12Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Thanks. > > That’s what I had guessed but dayum. 61% of all energy generated is lost to waste. 67% of all electricity generated. And of petroleum energy used for transportation 85% is lost to waste. > > Wow. > > That’s the big deal with EVs: EVs convert electricity to motive force with roughly 59 to 62% efficiency; ICEs 15% per that diagram (and maybe 17 to 21% according to[fueleconomy.gov](http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evtech.shtml#end-notes)) Yes, ICEs have low theoretical efficiencies, and the actuals are even worse. But don’t forget generation and transmission losses for EVs. They still come out ahead, but it’s not as crazy good. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-we-gave-every-household-in-the-usa-a-free-electric-car/663960/67 "2013-07-22T23:24:17Z")
How do you account for production and transport “losses” (energy costs) on the petroleum side? I’ve read “well to wheel” comparisons (such as [this one](http://web.mit.edu/evt/summary_wtw.pdf)) but it seems that some of the inputs assumptions can vary widely. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-we-gave-every-household-in-the-usa-a-free-electric-car/663960/68 "2013-07-22T23:38:44Z")
Speed is not a problem on electric cars. I have driven a Chevy Volt and a Nissan Leaf (and a long time ago an EV-1). Electric has superior acceleration to gasoline by a long margin. Faster does use more batter reserves, however. Recently I was doing the 55 limit on a country road (Vasco Road) grade and was silently passed rather quickly by a Tesla S. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-we-gave-every-household-in-the-usa-a-free-electric-car/663960/69 "2013-07-23T00:58:20Z")
> [@Mtgman](#): > > The next step is to deploy the PVs(photovoltaic panels), as they get cheap enough. There are essentially two options. Making a big farm of PVs out in the desert somewhere and losing energy to transmission costs but being able to centralize the other infrastructure. The pros of this approach is it can be upgraded more easily as better power collection and distribution tech comes available. It doesn’t force homeowners to have PV on their roof. It can be maintained by professionals year-round. The downsides are the transmission and the enormous cost of such a farm. It also doesn’t really relieve the grid, it just puts some non-fossil fuel sources of energy into it. > > The second approach is more distributed. Each house gets a 1.5-2.5 KW solar install on the roof(not that big, easily fits on the average suburban roof) and it runs the daily stuff of the house. … How about a third way: distributed but not on every house, and minimally not maintained or owned by the homeowner? Those factory rooftops you mentioned are prime solar real estate. Those factory owners and homeowners can “lease” their rooftop real estate to utilities in return for a discount on their electricity. Maintaining the distributed array, and making a profit off of it, is the business of the utility. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-we-gave-every-household-in-the-usa-a-free-electric-car/663960/70 "2013-07-23T01:19:53Z")
[Details:](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323336104578503163386998372.html) > [@](#): > > Some of the largest U.S. users of coal are thinking about getting into the solar-power business. … A growing number of businesses and other building owners are interested in adding solar power to their roofs but often don’t have the funds. Some startups are financing installation and recouping the costs through long-term, solar-power-payment agreements with building or home owners. Utilities can make money that way, or they can simply rent the rooftop from the owner and take all the power for the grid, hoping the solar energy generated will save costs elsewhere. … In Virginia, Dominion Resources Inc. D +0.18% has for decades operated a monopoly in its service territory, owning large power plants that generate electricity and the lines that transmit it. > > Last November, Virginia’s electricity regulator gave Dominion permission to start installing solar panels on the rooftops of commercial and industrial customers. In 2013 and 2014, Dominion plans to spend about $80 million to build more than 20 small-scale rooftop solar plants. > > The utility will lease the rooftop space from building owners. Dominion plans to later ask regulators to charge its entire customer base for the cost of purchasing and installing the solar equipment as well as the leases it pays on the rooftop solar systems, plus a rate of return. It is betting that the proposal will save money for its Dominion Virginia Power unit overall because the extra power will reduce the need to pay for electricity-distribution-system upgrades. > > Dominion Vice President Ken Barker said the project will also help the utility gather data about how much electricity solar panels produce in the Virginia sun. “We’re in the generation business, so we better understand the models” of each new type of generation, he said in an interview. > > Other utilities, including North Carolina’s Duke Energy Corp., DUK -0.16% have dabbled in rooftop solar. California’s PG&E Corp. PCG +0.27% has invested more than $200 million in projects by residential-solar developers SolarCity and Sunrun Inc. PG&E has said that while its utility can’t use those investments to comply with California’s renewable-energy requirements, they provided a way for the company to gain experience in the rooftop-solar market. … ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-we-gave-every-household-in-the-usa-a-free-electric-car/663960/71 "2013-07-23T01:38:17Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Not without major and profound upgrades. I worked on a confidential study for a typical Midwestern city of about 2 million in its metropolitan area, and we found that no more than 20% of the cars could be replaced with EVs before the grid would become unstable. With an investment of about $1,400 per person, this capacity could be upgraded to about 50%. > > YMMV (pun intended), depending on your city. Thats interesting. I heard as long as the cars are recharged at night it wouldn’t be a problem, since production capacity at night is far higher than utilization. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-we-gave-every-household-in-the-usa-a-free-electric-car/663960/72 "2013-07-23T02:52:57Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Thats interesting. I heard as long as the cars are recharged at night it wouldn’t be a problem, since production capacity at night is far higher than utilization. If you have chargers that can be turned on and off by the power company, it becomes much easier. Otherwise everyone comes home from work and plugs in. Bad times there. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-we-gave-every-household-in-the-usa-a-free-electric-car/663960/73 "2013-07-23T03:09:34Z")
Again, easily incentivized by differential pricing. My plug-in really does come with an app that allows me to time it’s charge to coincide with cheaper rates if they exist. On the board run by owners most use that app. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-we-gave-every-household-in-the-usa-a-free-electric-car/663960/74 "2013-07-23T03:51:23Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Una, > > What are your thoughts about valley filling allowing for greater penetration, as reviewed [here](http://funginstitute.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/Impact%20of%20Widespread%20Electric%20Vehicle%20Adoption%20on%20the%20Electrical%20Utility%20Business%20%E2%80%93%20Threats%20and%20Opportunities.pdf)?(Bolding mine.) > > [Here’s](http://energy.mae.cornell.edu/PDF/Intelligent%20electric%20vehicle%20charging-%20Rethinking%20the%20valley-fill.pdf) another more recent analysis of intelliegent EV valley fill charging under different level 2 chager penetration scenarios. I looked up my notes from my last seminar. It’s not so much the drain on the total power grid - we can handle that. It’s the drain on the grid at the city and neighborhood level. That is, while we can increase capacity and do things like valley filling and load-shifting to even things out, the problem is that an amazingly large number of residential feeder and trunks could not deal with a case where 50% of people have electric vehicles. And even though people may not charge their cars on the same day, or even the same time, the system needs to be able to plan for “what if every single house in the neighborhood plugged in their EVs all at once?” ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-we-gave-every-household-in-the-usa-a-free-electric-car/663960/75 "2013-07-23T03:58:07Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > That makes sense, but right now isn’t coal primarily mined in either the Appalachians or the Rockies, with smaller amounts from central areas like the band around Illinois south through Texas? I ask because I would assume that coal leaves those places by barge and by rail and gets to power plants all over the country. The PRB region instead of Rockies (yes, there is Rocky Mountain coal, but the PRB region is supplying close to 50% of all US coal right now, and likely will hit 75% within 20 years). > [@](#): > > Could not our pipeline and rail infrastructure move natural gas in a similar way? Now, I understand it would take a considerable time, especially the pipeline infrastructure as the government has been leery of approving new pipelines and they take a really long time to build and get online even when approved. So I know that isn’t a short term answer, but shouldn’t it be possible in the “long term” to nationally distribute gas like we do coal? Yes, it just takes time and money…and one other thing. When our existing rail lines, pipelines, terminals, etc. were originally set up, environmental legislation was much less pervasive. The amount of environmental legal and science work required to run a new pipeline, install a new gas pumping station, or make a new LNG terminal is huge. And every single homeowner within a mile of the pipeline can file a suit, sometimes with the Sierra Club et al. taking their case. Doable, sure. Expensive and time-consuming, yes. > [@](#): > > If you could create a full-size CCS coal plant would it still be profitable? Basically, is the problem we do not have the technology to equip a BACT plant with CCS or that even if we did it would be prohibitively expensive? That…is highly debatable. My thought is 5 years ago, yes, you could have a coal plant and be profitable. Now, no, the technology appears to cost far more than we thought, the environmental concerns regarding the sequestration portion seem much more troubling (what happens when a micro-earthquake fractures the rock and 1 B tons of CO2 come rushing out, etc.), and cheap gas is simply killing coal. I’ve lost more than 50% of my business over the last 3 years, which is one reason I’ve moved more and more into academia, and may turn my part-time University position into full-time at some point. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-we-gave-every-household-in-the-usa-a-free-electric-car/663960/76 "2013-07-23T04:03:36Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Energy lost to waste heat, friction, etc. e.g. an incandescent bulb loses ~98% of energy to heat; only a little goes to the intended purpose of illuminating your room. No, that’s not the primary source on that chart, and that loss isn’t considered on that chart anyhow. The loss in this context primarily refers to thermodynamic efficiency at Rankine and Brayton-cycle power plants. In short, what goes up the stack and out the cooling towers. Just look at net plant heat rates in the US, convert to thermal efficiency, and the answer is there. The fleet thermal efficiency of coal is about 33-36% IIRC. The fleet thermal efficiency of GTs and CCGTs is about 45%+. I swear I worked the calculations for the entire US not too long ago, and posted it. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-we-gave-every-household-in-the-usa-a-free-electric-car/663960/77 "2013-07-23T11:06:23Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > No, that’s not the primary source on that chart, and that loss isn’t considered on that chart anyhow. The loss in this context primarily refers to thermodynamic efficiency at Rankine and Brayton-cycle power plants. In short, what goes up the stack and out the cooling towers. > > Just look at net plant heat rates in the US, convert to thermal efficiency, and the answer is there. The fleet thermal efficiency of coal is about 33-36% IIRC. The fleet thermal efficiency of GTs and CCGTs is about 45%+. I swear I worked the calculations for the entire US not too long ago, and posted it. I thought the question was about vehicles, so I was trying to use an analogy to household devices. But you’re right that isn’t so appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-we-gave-every-household-in-the-usa-a-free-electric-car/663960/78 "2013-07-24T03:26:11Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > No, that’s not the primary source on that chart, and that loss isn’t considered on that chart anyhow. The loss in this context primarily refers to thermodynamic efficiency at Rankine and Brayton-cycle power plants. In short, what goes up the stack and out the cooling towers. > > Just look at net plant heat rates in the US, convert to thermal efficiency, and the answer is there. The fleet thermal efficiency of coal is about 33-36% IIRC. The fleet thermal efficiency of GTs and CCGTs is about 45%+. I swear I worked the calculations for the entire US not too long ago, and posted it. Argh. Now I am more confused. How does that then translate into the “rejected energy” portion of the petroleum box? Is that waste heat of combustion? Or does it include other inefficiencies as well? ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-we-gave-every-household-in-the-usa-a-free-electric-car/663960/79 "2013-07-24T03:58:17Z")
> [@The\_Controvert](#): > > As for cost, we just need automated manufacturing to get better and cheaper. Maybe an advance in self-replicating machines… I do this for a living. Saying “we just need automated manufacturing to get better and cheaper” is like saying, “well, to cure cancer we just need to kill the cancer.” > [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > It if takes longer than a gas fill-up, it’s going to be a huge hurdle to acceptance. Even gas fillups suck when the pump is slow (such as when the station has low tanks). I try to run to empty, and one of my vehicles has an about 105 liter tank. Watching the counter tick by at 10¢ per second is a frustrating experience. And being limited to $75 per transaction is salt in the wound. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-we-gave-every-household-in-the-usa-a-free-electric-car/663960/80 "2013-07-24T04:00:50Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > I looked up my notes from my last seminar. It’s not so much the drain on the total power grid - we can handle that. It’s the drain on the grid at the city and neighborhood level. … In that case the situation is likely even worse … EV adoption will likely be subject to clustering, and critical mass at those local levels of clustered adoption may be hit at much lower overall adoption rates. Of course this is, in a real world, likely to be a gradual process. Cars don’t get replaced every year. As local clusters get close to maxxing out their feeder and trunks they would get upgraded … gradually. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-we-gave-every-household-in-the-usa-a-free-electric-car/663960.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-we-gave-every-household-in-the-usa-a-free-electric-car/663960.md?page=5)