# So I'm Finally Watching Buffy... \[Progressive unboxed spoilers\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 11, 2010, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107 "2010-05-11T22:25:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Waffle\_Decider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/77aa72/32.png) [@Waffle\_Decider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waffle_Decider)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2010, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/321 "2010-06-26T12:00:02Z")
> [@bouv](#): > > Angel knew that because of who he is/was, he will always be involved in the supernatural, people trying to kill him, and he always feels an obligation to fight evil. In theory, if Buffy was just dating some normal dude, that normal dude, while in danger because he was close to Buffy, wouldn’t be bringing in any of his _own_ danger. I guess that was probably it, but I still think it seems to be a lame reason to give up such a rare opportunity. But Angel is stupid like that. 😛 It wasn’t like other members of the Scooby didn’t bring their own baggage with them to the gang either. See Buffy season 5, for example. Since she regarded Angel as her “true love”, I’m sure she wouldn’t consider that a burden. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2010, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/322 "2010-06-26T13:46:27Z")
> [@Waffle\_Decider](#): > > I love that episode, and I think it’s a great story. It even made me cry, and I’m a guy. However, there’s something that doesn’t quite make sense to me upon second thought. Angel supposedly thought that he couldn’t just be a normal human being and be together with Buffy because, without his superpower, they would be vulnerable and it would put them in danger, or something like that. However, how was that any different from Buffy just dating some normal Joe in college? In fact, she was trying very hard to look for just such a normal relationship right around that time. Did Angel think that Buffy must never date a normal human being, ever? 😕 The way I saw it, even if they aren’t in a relationship, Buffy needs Angel. He’s always jumping in to save her ass at the last minute. The purpose of that episode is to show how Angel is fundamental to Buffy’s survival. As a mortal he got the royal beatdown and damn near saw his true love butchered. When Angel heard that the worst was to come, he realized that as a weak mortal he wouldn’t be able to protect her. So he could: a) become mortal and have a relationship with Buffy, only to watch helplessly as she dies, or b) remain a vampire and not have a relationship with Buffy, but ensure that the woman he loves most in the world actually survives. Not a wonderful choice. I would add–though this part is totally my invention–I believe Angel really does feel like he’s found meaning in vanquishing evil. Leaving aside the Buffy issue, if he were human he could no longer continue to help others. For Angel I think he’s found both his calling and his atonement in his work. Being human would force him to lose both of these. I think that could have motivated his decision as well. Though he doesn’t say that explicitly, he mentioned in an earlier episode that the reason he chose to destroy the ring that would make him invincible is because he felt a duty to the people he took care of, the most vulnerable of L.A.'s citizens. Angel is the Bruce Wayne of the Buffyverse. As much as he has his own personal desires, he can’t let those take priority over his duty to protect others, \*least of all \*his duty to protect Buffy. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2010, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/323 "2010-06-26T13:54:31Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > That’s very tragic. Indeed. I’ve always believed this is what got him kicked off Angel, despite denial from the show runners. I actually really dislike Angel season 1, by the way. Angel improves hugely season by season. Season 4 and 5 are amazing…almost better than Buffy. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Tanbarkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@Tanbarkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tanbarkie)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2010, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/324 "2010-06-26T14:13:11Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > Indeed. I’ve always believed this is what got him kicked off Angel, despite denial from the show runners. > > I actually really dislike Angel season 1, by the way. > > Angel improves hugely season by season. Season 4 and 5 are amazing…almost better than Buffy. 🙂 Correction - seasons 2, 3, and 5 are amazing. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2010, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/325 "2010-06-26T14:21:25Z")
Agreed. Season 4 is abysmal. ---
**Author:** ![gonzoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a6a055/32.png) [@gonzoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzoron)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2010, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/326 "2010-06-26T14:37:01Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > I would add–though this part is totally my invention–I believe Angel really does feel like he’s found meaning in vanquishing evil. Leaving aside the Buffy issue, if he were human he could no longer continue to help others. For Angel I think he’s found both his calling and his atonement in his work. Bingo. I don’t think I’m spoiling much by saying that this will become a central theme of the series in later seasons. One of things that makes Angel a great character and a great show (from season 2 onward, IMHO, _including_ season 4, warts and all). ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2010, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/327 "2010-06-26T14:44:35Z")
> [@Waffle\_Decider](#): > > I guess that was probably it, but I still think it seems to be a lame reason to give up such a rare opportunity. But Angel is stupid like that. 😛 It wasn’t like other members of the Scooby didn’t bring their own baggage with them to the gang either. See Buffy season 5, for example. Since she regarded Angel as her “true love”, I’m sure she wouldn’t consider that a burden. Angel carries a surfeit of hubris. One thing that consistently pissed me off about his character is that he constantly makes life-altering decisions for other people, like this one for Buffy, instead of trusting them to make their own decisions. He thinks of her as an innocent little bunny and really works the age angle to justify not letting her decide her own lover. And the kicker is that ultimately his decisions are made not with her, but with his own adrenaline junky world savior self in mind. (Well, and, y’know, keeping the spinoff series going.) He’s still a selfish bastard wrapped in a hero disguise. This isn’t the last time. And pay back, when it ultimately comes, is a BITCH. Third Season \*Angel \*spoiler. Seriously, **Olives** , do not read this!: When Wesley kidnaps Connor, it’s out of identical hubris - a false pride that he and only he knows what to do, and so he never consults Angel before making a \*very \*lifechanging decision for him. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2010, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/328 "2010-06-26T16:04:15Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Agreed. Season 4 is abysmal. Season 4 is my favorite Angel season, but again like with season 6 Buffy I’m comfortable holding a minority opinion. Plus, Gwen Raiden! Yowza. ---
**Author:** ![Waffle\_Decider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/77aa72/32.png) [@Waffle\_Decider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waffle_Decider)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2010, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/329 "2010-06-26T16:26:27Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Angel carries a surfeit of hubris. One thing that consistently pissed me off about his character is that he constantly makes life-altering decisions for other people, like this one for Buffy, instead of trusting them to make their own decisions. He thinks of her as an innocent little bunny and really works the age angle to justify not letting her decide her own lover. And the kicker is that ultimately his decisions are made not with her, but with his own adrenaline junky world savior self in mind. (Well, and, y’know, keeping the spinoff series going.) He’s still a selfish bastard wrapped in a hero disguise. > > This isn’t the last time. And pay back, when it ultimately comes, is a BITCH. > > Third Season \*Angel \*spoiler. Seriously, **Olives** , do not read this!: > > When Wesley kidnaps Connor, it’s out of identical hubris - a false pride that he and only he knows what to do, and so he never consults Angel before making a \*very \*lifechanging decision for him. That’s a good point. That’s also what annoys me about Angel. I think the thing about atonement by helping the people of LA, as well as the hubris, make a lot more sense than the reason given in the episode. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2010, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/330 "2010-06-26T16:28:53Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > As we were falling asleep last night, I commented to \*\*Sr. Olives \*\*that Cordelia is the most 3-dimensional superficial character I’ve ever seen written into a show. I also love that despite being shallow, she possesses real intelligence (as in _Hero_ when she tells the captain of the ship that only half of his debt is forgiven, despite the fact that Angel told her to forgive all their debt. This allows her bargaining power to keep the ship from leaving too soon. Clever girl!) I love Cordelia, and I love the growth she goes through over the years. It’s just really well-done. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2010, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/331 "2010-06-26T17:41:11Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > This isn’t the last time. And pay back, when it ultimately comes, is a BITCH. > > Third Season \*Angel \*spoiler. Seriously, **Olives** , do not read this!: > > When Wesley kidnaps Connor, it’s out of identical hubris - a false pride that he and only he knows what to do, and so he never consults Angel before making a \*very \*lifechanging decision for him. To be fair to Wesley, I think it was far more tragic than anything Angel ever did (and I agree that Angel’s hubris is his greatest flaw). Wesley spent the first half of S3 becoming more and more isolated and I think he was genuinely going crazy. By the time he made his decision to take Connor, he wasn’t thinking clearly because he wasn’t sleeping–and when he did he had nightmares–and he wasn’t eating and worse, he wasn’t talking to anybody. It wasn’t arrogance that drove him to taking Connor. He absolutely should have consulted Angel, but I think they did a good job of establishing why he felt he couldn’t and the fact that at that point he was really no longer himself. Also, FWIW, I think Angel S4 is one of the finest seasons of television ever produced. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2010, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/332 "2010-06-26T17:52:36Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Agreed. Season 4 is abysmal. Agreed. It is not just the worst season of Angel, it is the worst season of any television series produced by Whedon. > [@Mahaloth](#): > > Indeed. I’ve always believed this is what got him kicked off Angel, despite denial from the show runners. I’ve always heard (and believed) it was Joss finally being able to kill a series regular early in the show’s run, like he always intended with Jesse in Welcome to the Hellmouth and The Harvest. > [@Kyla](#): > > I love Cordelia, and I love the growth she goes through over the years. It’s just really well-done. It never felt real to me. While Wesley’s arc was just as profound, it felt a lot more organic and was eminently believable to me, but I just can’t reconcile Cordy’s Queen Bee → Den Mother metamorphosis. ---
**Author:** ![gonzoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a6a055/32.png) [@gonzoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzoron)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/333 "2010-06-27T12:34:13Z")
Remember folks, olives hasn’t seen much of Angel yet! > [@Aesiron](#): > > eminently believable to me, but I just can’t reconcile Cordy’s Queen Bee → Den Mother metamorphosis. High school kids grow up, especially when exposed to the real world. Cordy went from being a big fish in a small pond to a small fish in an enormous pond pretty fast. And from rich to broke when daddy’s business went bellyup. Those things can change a person. The superficial high school stuff suddenly seems lees important. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/334 "2010-06-27T16:16:18Z")
> [@gonzoron](#): > > Remember folks, olives hasn’t seen much of Angel yet! > > High school kids grow up, especially when exposed to the real world. Cordy went from being a big fish in a small pond to a small fish in an enormous pond pretty fast. And from rich to broke when daddy’s business went bellyup. Those things can change a person. The superficial high school stuff suddenly seems lees important. Speaking as someone who’s only 28, and is still in the throes of my own metamorphosis, I realize that, but the Den Mother characterization never rang true to me, and there was no hint of it in her three seasons of character development in BtVS, and I don’t remember much of it in the early seasons of Angel, either, until she was suddenly the matron of Angel Investigations. Her consoling Conner and acting as some sort of warm maternal figure just completely shattered my suspension of disbelief. I just cannot buy it while every other drastic change (Willow as a straight shy geek to a gay chic geek, Wesley from bookworm to badass, and even Spike from a Sid Vicious wannabe into the romantic sap) was pretty believable, for the most part. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/335 "2010-06-27T16:35:08Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > Speaking as someone who’s only 28, and is still in the throes of my own metamorphosis, I realize that, but the Den Mother characterization never rang true to me, and there was no hint of it in her three seasons of character development in BtVS, and I don’t remember much of it in the early seasons of Angel, either, until she was suddenly the matron of Angel Investigations. Her consoling Conner and acting as some sort of warm maternal figure just completely shattered my suspension of disbelief. I just cannot buy it while every other drastic change (Willow as a straight shy geek to a gay chic geek, Wesley from bookworm to badass, and even Spike from a Sid Vicious wannabe into the romantic sap) was pretty believable, for the most part. Wot? You mean her consoling Connor and acting as a warm maternal figure when Connor was all grown up and Cordelia was _possessed by Jasmine_? And she was trying to seduce Connor so she could be born? Is that the characterization you had a hard time accepting? ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/336 "2010-06-27T17:12:30Z")
> [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > Wot? You mean her consoling Connor and acting as a warm maternal figure when Connor was all grown up and Cordelia was _possessed by Jasmine_? And she was trying to seduce Connor so she could be born? Is that the characterization you had a hard time accepting? Was she already possessed by then? I’m fuzzy on that entire arc because I’ve only seen it once or twice due to hating it so much, so I very well might have my timeline mixed up. If she was already possessed by that point, it makes sense, and I retract my objection to the character. Everything up to then was much more believable as she was still recognizable as the Cordelia we met in Welcome to the Hellmouth, only more mature. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/337 "2010-06-27T17:23:41Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > I’ve always heard (and believed) it was Joss finally being able to kill a series regular early in the show’s run, like he always intended with Jesse in Welcome to the Hellmouth and The Harvest. Well, David Fury talked about that. He said: > [@](#): > > “Joss has bandied about, ‘I love the idea of putting a character in the main credits as one of the stars of the show and then kill him right off the bat,’” Fury said. “ **But in the case of Doyle, he didn’t want to kill off Doyle. It just became a situation. The work situation became difficult… It’s hard enough to make a television show without the headaches.** ” I think they were having issues with Glenn Quinn. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/338 "2010-06-27T17:25:08Z")
Technically speaking, the character Cordelia Chase does not appear at all in Season 4 of Angel. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/339 "2010-06-27T17:37:28Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > I think they were having issues with Glenn Quinn. While I don’t think there’s any doubt that Glenn Quinn was a drug addict during his time on Angel, I think the transition from Doyle to Wesley is much too smooth, plotwise, to be the result of a sudden firing. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/340 "2010-06-27T18:25:53Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > Was she already possessed by then? I’m fuzzy on that entire arc because I’ve only seen it once or twice due to hating it so much, so I very well might have my timeline mixed up. If she was already possessed by that point, it makes sense, and I retract my objection to the character. Everything up to then was much more believable as she was still recognizable as the Cordelia we met in Welcome to the Hellmouth, only more mature. It’s difficult to say when Cordelia “died” and was replaced by Jasmine. I think it was in S3 when she agreed to let Skip make her “part demon” but in any case, she was possessed when she returned to the Hyperion in S4 from her time with the Powers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107.md?page=18)