# So I'm Finally Watching Buffy... \[Progressive unboxed spoilers\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 11, 2010, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107 "2010-05-11T22:25:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![bouv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@bouv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bouv)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/341 "2010-06-27T21:23:15Z")
> [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > It’s difficult to say when Cordelia “died” and was replaced by Jasmine. I think it was in S3 when she agreed to let Skip make her “part demon” but in any case, she was possessed when she returned to the Hyperion in S4 from her time with the Powers. [spoiler]It was still Cordelia. Didn’t Jasmine, or maybe Skip, say that Jasmine “hitched a ride” when Cordy came back from the “heavenly” dimension, or something? It was still Cordy when Skip made her part-demon, IMO. That had two purposes…keep Cordy from getting her brains blown out from the visions, and make it so she could “Ascend to the higher realm.” And not _all_ of Cordy’s appearances in Season 4 was Jasmine…the first few times we see her “in heaven,” it’s her.[/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/342 "2010-06-27T23:48:06Z")
> [@bouv](#): > > [spoiler]It was still Cordelia. Didn’t Jasmine, or maybe Skip, say that Jasmine “hitched a ride” when Cordy came back from the “heavenly” dimension, or something? It was still Cordy when Skip made her part-demon, IMO. That had two purposes…keep Cordy from getting her brains blown out from the visions, and make it so she could “Ascend to the higher realm.” > > And not _all_ of Cordy’s appearances in Season 4 was Jasmine…the first few times we see her “in heaven,” it’s her.[/spoiler] Right, but what Aesiron is complaining about was the result of Jasmine. Specifically, Jasmine needed Connor to trust Cordelia so eventually he would father her. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/343 "2010-06-28T02:55:25Z")
\ ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/344 "2010-06-28T15:38:30Z")
BUFFY SEASON 4 and ANGEL SEASON 1 **SPOILERS** TO FOLLOW: Okay, Buffy Season 4 is finally getting really good. We made great progress this weekend: \*\* Doomed A New Man The I in Team Goodbye Iowa This Year’s Girl (Part One of Two) Who Are You (Part Two of Two)\*\* I still feel kinda ‘‘okay, whatever’’ about Riley, but he’s growing on me enough that I give a shit whether he lives or dies. I keep going back and forth between getting caught up in the Initiative drama and thinking it’s lame. Now, as for Willow and her new girlfriend… obviously this girl must be a demon or something because she deliberately threw that experiment to locate nearby demonic forces. But she’s also obviously in love with Willow. And I really hope this doesn’t turn into ‘‘Joss Whedon’s attempt to use magic as a metaphor for lesbianism without actually showing chicks make out.’’ Because I would be sort of annoyed with him for not being willing to explicitly portray a lesbian relationship. I love that in the middle of this Room 314 clusterfuck they dropped Faith into the picture. Jeez. I absolutely loved both of the Faith episodes and consider them the best of the season. I’ve always felt Faith was an incredibly believable character. She doesn’t do things out of evil so much as pure selfishness, and even her decision to do good by saving the church patrons seemed selfishly motivated. But maybe that’s sort of the point. Because I think those of us who do try to do good are selfishly motivated, in part. Which brings us to **WhyNot** ’s insightful comment about Angel: [QUOTE=WhyNot] Angel carries a surfeit of hubris. One thing that consistently pissed me off about his character is that he constantly makes life-altering decisions for other people, like this one for Buffy, instead of trusting them to make their own decisions. He thinks of her as an innocent little bunny and really works the age angle to justify not letting her decide her own lover. And the kicker is that ultimately his decisions are made not with her, but with his own adrenaline junky world savior self in mind. (Well, and, y’know, keeping the spinoff series going.) He’s still a selfish bastard wrapped in a hero disguise. [/QUOTE] This comment made me look more critically at his decisions. The last episodes I watched are: **Somnambulist Expecting She I’ve Got You Under My Skin The Prodigal The Ring** I believe it’s in The Prodigal that Kate’s father is killed because of his crooked dealings. And Angel’s first instinct as she discovers the body of her father is to _explain why it wasn’t his fault._ Twice in the course of her total devastation he feels the need to justify his actions and explain that he’s really not a bad guy. He seems to have no concept that there are more important things in that moment than proving his worthiness. Chances are, if he had just kept his mouth shut or just held her or something she wouldn’t have retaliated in anger and told him to stay the hell away from her. However, I think calling him a selfish bastard is oversimplifying things. It would be more apt to say that he is driven by guilt and the need to have that guilt alleviated, to the point that he can’t see straight. More than pointing to something wrong with Angel, I think his character points to the human condition. We are all inherently self-motivated people, whether we are willing to own it or not. And as for Buffy, it’s not like he’s obligated to consider everyone’s feelings _but_ his own. What it comes down to is whether or not he wants to be mortal. He chose not. And while he might be ‘‘working’’ that age angle to his advantage, he’s got a point. He’s 300 fucking years old screwing around with a teenager. He should have played the age card a long time ago. As for the Angel arc in general, well… there is no arc. I’m waiting for there to be an arc. I like the episodes, individually, and I get that the purpose of them is to show Angel, Cordelia and Wesley learning to trust and rely upon one another, but I would very much like to feel like we’re moving in a certain direction. I know that will come with time. I’m just ready. ---
**Author:** ![gonzoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a6a055/32.png) [@gonzoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzoron)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/345 "2010-06-28T15:56:03Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > Now, as for Willow and her new girlfriend… obviously this girl must be a demon or something because she deliberately threw that experiment to locate nearby demonic forces. But she’s also obviously in love with Willow. And I really hope this doesn’t turn into ‘‘Joss Whedon’s attempt to use magic as a metaphor for lesbianism without actually showing chicks make out.’’ Because I would be sort of annoyed with him for not being willing to explicitly portray a lesbian relationship. I’ll try not to spoil anything, but here’s a quote from Joss in 2000 “The network obviously has issues. They don’t want any kissing – that’s one thing that they’ve stipulated – and they’re a little nervous about it.” So, it’s not Joss who’s to blame for that. > [@](#): > > As for the Angel arc in general, well… there is no arc. I’m waiting for there to be an arc. I like the episodes, individually, and I get that the purpose of them is to show Angel, Cordelia and Wesley learning to trust and rely upon one another, but I would very much like to feel like we’re moving in a certain direction. I know that will come with time. I’m just ready. That’s my major issue with Angel Season 1 as well. After getting used to Buffy’s season long arcs, it was back to the usual episodic TV paradigm. Season 2 is where that really starts to take root in Angel, but your next few episodes will plant some seeds. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/346 "2010-06-28T16:30:11Z")
Don’t think of Angel seasons the way you’ve been trained to watch Buffy seasons. Buffy always follows the same pattern of little bad for the first 12 or so eps and then the arc begins for the Big Bad in earnest. **Angel** doesn’t follow that pattern–the overall arc is for the entire series. Think of S1 like a prologue. The first season gets everybody in place, and then seasons 2, 3, and 4 are all connected as one epic story. Angel’s hubris/selfishness becomes more apparent as the seasons progress. On an episode by episode basis, it’s not as evident. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/347 "2010-06-28T17:36:42Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > Now, as for Willow and her new girlfriend… obviously this girl must be a demon or something because she deliberately threw that experiment to locate nearby demonic forces. But she’s also obviously in love with Willow. And I really hope this doesn’t turn into ‘‘Joss Whedon’s attempt to use magic as a metaphor for lesbianism without actually showing chicks make out.’’ Because I would be sort of annoyed with him for not being willing to explicitly portray a lesbian relationship. Please bear in mind that these episodes originally aired in 2000. Before Willow and Tara there weren’t a whole lot of lesbian relationships on TV period. So them not being all over each other (like Riley and Buffy are pretty much all the time) is perfectly in keeping with TV at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Waffle\_Decider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/77aa72/32.png) [@Waffle\_Decider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waffle_Decider)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/348 "2010-06-28T19:44:23Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > Now, as for Willow and her new girlfriend… obviously this girl must be a demon or something because she deliberately threw that experiment to locate nearby demonic forces. But she’s also obviously in love with Willow. And I really hope this doesn’t turn into ‘‘Joss Whedon’s attempt to use magic as a metaphor for lesbianism without actually showing chicks make out.’’ Because I would be sort of annoyed with him for not being willing to explicitly portray a lesbian relationship. The reason Tara did that would be made clear later on in the show (but not in the near future). However, when I saw that episode for the first time, the way I interpreted it was that Tara thought they really weren’t ready for the spell, and that bad thing might ensue if they continued. However, Willow seemed so excited about trying it, and Tara didn’t want to hurt her feeling, so she discreetly threw the experiment off. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/349 "2010-06-28T23:39:58Z")
> [@gonzoron](#): > > I’ll try not to spoil anything, but here’s a quote from Joss in 2000 “The network obviously has issues. They don’t want any kissing – that’s one thing that they’ve stipulated – and they’re a little nervous about it.” So, it’s not Joss who’s to blame for that. Not to spoil anything, but the show moved to a different network in season 6. Just sayin’… ---
**Author:** ![gonzoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a6a055/32.png) [@gonzoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzoron)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/350 "2010-06-29T01:14:28Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > Not to spoil anything, but the show moved to a different network in season 6. Just sayin’… Apparently WB came around, though. Tara and Willow’s first kiss was in Season 5’s The Body. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/351 "2010-06-29T02:12:10Z")
Yeah, but it was a very chaste, almost sisterly kiss, appropriate for a funeral. You want smoochies, wait for season 6. ---
**Author:** ![Mauvaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mauvaise/32/11084_2.png) [@Mauvaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mauvaise)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/352 "2010-06-29T02:18:18Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > Yeah, but > > it was a very chaste, almost sisterly kiss, appropriate for a funeral. You want smoochies, wait for season 6. Yeah, but Joss makes us pay for those smoochies with our hearts. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/353 "2010-06-29T03:07:01Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Please bear in mind that these episodes originally aired in 2000. Before Willow and Tara there weren’t a whole lot of lesbian relationships on TV period. So them not being all over each other (like Riley and Buffy are pretty much all the time) is perfectly in keeping with TV at the time. Ok, I forgive them. And anyway, it’s too cute. **Sr. Olives** made a comment tonight as we watched ‘‘Superstar’’: ‘‘Willow’s girlfriend actually makes Willow seem confident.’’ Not much else to add about ‘‘Superstar’’ – interesting idea with mediocre execution. Oh, wait, can I just say that I love Anya? ‘‘You’re still here. Why are you still here? Uh… I mean… how wonderful to see you…’’ We also just watched ‘‘Eternity’’ – which was a great episode for Angel and a frightening reminder of what a vampire is. Yeesh, it’s easy to forget, what with Spike being neutered and all. The brief return of Angelus was rather unexpected, to say the least, but I loved how it drew out all the secret feelings among friends. ‘‘Do you think I did good?’’ ‘‘I wouldn’t say it if I didn’t mean it.’’ ‘’…You didn’t say it.‘’ ‘’…‘’ ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/354 "2010-06-29T04:14:20Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > Yeah, but > > it was a very chaste, almost sisterly kiss, appropriate for a funeral. You want smoochies, wait for season 6. [spoiler]Whoa, you kiss your sister that way? They must do things different where you come from. 😉 [/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/355 "2010-06-29T14:22:45Z")
I love Firefly and want to like this but I just watched the first three episodes of season 1 on Netflix and it really isn’t my cup of tea. Can I skip to season two’s _Hush_ and get started with the good stuff? ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/356 "2010-06-29T14:44:46Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > I love Firefly and want to like this but I just watched the first three episodes of season 1 on Netflix and it really isn’t my cup of tea. Can I skip to season two’s _Hush_ and get started with the good stuff? _Hush_ isn’t in Season Two. I missed the original run of _Buffy_ for various reasons. Caught various re-runs that made _no_ sense. Then had some time off when a cable channel was showing 4 episodes a day–in the original running order. So I began to get the appeal. After realizing I enjoyed the show, I started Netflixing Season 1, Episode 1. (In The Old Days, when you actually had to wait for DVD’s in the mail box!) Knowing what was to come, I was able to enjoy some of the earliest shows. And I enjoy parts of the later seasons, which some of the original Discussed Every Episode In Home Room set pretend don’t exist. Love _Angel_, too. Just start watching anywhere, OK! But you will enjoy the show more, the more you know… In the short run–watch the last 2 episodes in Season 1! ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/357 "2010-06-29T15:08:37Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > …In the short run–watch the last 2 episodes in Season 1! Missed the edit window. You already saw the first episode–which is necessary background. - Episode 7 (“Angel”) gives more background to the ongoing story–for this show & Angel’s own. - Episode 9 (“The Puppet Show”) is pretty good in its own right. - Episode 12 (“Prophecy Girl”) is _not_ a 2-parter! But it wraps up the season nicely. ---
**Author:** ![Omi\_no\_Kami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Omi\_no\_Kami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omi_no_Kami)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/358 "2010-06-30T00:05:40Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > I love Firefly and want to like this but I just watched the first three episodes of season 1 on Netflix and it really isn’t my cup of tea. Can I skip to season two’s _Hush_ and get started with the good stuff? My personal advice is to watch season 1, knowing two things: that the rest of the show is significantly better, and that 1 really sets in stone the character of the main protagonists and goes a long way toward setting the scene for the rest of the show. If you want to skip, I would agree with Bridge Burke’s suggestion that you see Angel, The Puppet Show, and Prophecy Girl, and add: Episode 3: “Witch” (necessary mythology for later in the series) Episode 4: “Teacher’s Pet” & Episode 6: “The Pack” (some of Xander’s best character building) In any case, once you get to season 2 I recommend watching it straight through: even though some of the earliest S2 episodes are quite weak overall, Whedon hits the ground running with his character development, and there are a lot of 10 and 15-minute segments (not to mention characters) from the first 6 episodes that you won’t want to miss. Regardless, my own opinion has always been that the series truly begins to fall into its niche in season 2, episode 6: “Halloween”, and shortly after that shit gets, to repeat a cliche, real. So enjoy! ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/359 "2010-06-30T00:25:54Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > I love Firefly and want to like this but I just watched the first three episodes of season 1 on Netflix and it really isn’t my cup of tea. Can I skip to season two’s _Hush_ and get started with the good stuff? Hush is in season 4. Yeah, seriously, season one is week, but it’s also pretty short. This is an amazing show and if you loved Firefly, you will most likely love Buffy. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Mauvaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mauvaise/32/11084_2.png) [@Mauvaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mauvaise)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/360 "2010-06-30T00:45:03Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > I love Firefly and want to like this but I just watched the first three episodes of season 1 on Netflix and it really isn’t my cup of tea. Can I skip to season two’s _Hush_ and get started with the good stuff? I posted this up thread a ways, but this would be the bear minimum I would recommend to get you hooked and have enough back story to enjoy the show: > [@](#): > > If you’re really not sure about picking up Buffy, watch the following from Season 1: > > Angel > Prophecy Girl > > From Season 2: > > When She Was Bad > What’s My Line, Parts 1 & 2 > Surprise > Innocence > Passion > Becoming Parts 1 & 2 Then start watching everything from Season 3 and on. You can always go back and watch the rest of S1 & 2 if you want later. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107.md?page=19)