# So I'm Finally Watching Buffy... \[Progressive unboxed spoilers\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 11, 2010, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107 "2010-05-11T22:25:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Tanbarkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@Tanbarkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tanbarkie)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/461 "2010-07-19T21:20:09Z")
> [@Angel\_of\_the\_Lord](#): > > [spoiler]I think that this really applies to the other much-maligned subplot of Season Six–namely, the magic addiction. In the beginning, they seemed to be very much on track to frame Willow’s addiction to magic as being psychological in nature. It was addictive in that it allowed her to get whatever she wanted–she got to bring her friend back from the dead, after all, with no thought about whether she should or shouldn’t. She began using magic for mundane tasks–decorating for a party, for instance. When called on it, she used magic to try to fix her significant other to her liking. And then, when she was called on _that_, she did the exact same thing. She took the easy way out instead of trying to put in the work or taking her lumps. > > This was an insightful character arc. The thing is, in the very next freaking episode, they decided that, nope, magic was addictive like drugs were addictive. And you could get high from it. And it was sold in sleazy, hidden flophouses by dealers who look like Willem Dafoe. And the only solution was to stop using it altogether. No trying to use it responsibly–cold turkey was the way to go. > > I think this pissed a lot of people off, because it was really heavy-handed, and, more importantly, completely inconsistent with where they seemed to have been going with it. Then, at the end of the season, they did the following: > > 1.) Had Tara going back to Willow for no real reason except that she hadn’t been using magic. This despite the fact that the issues they were having had far more to do about control, and less to do with magic. They then immediately killed her off. So, basically, they brought her back to be killed. This left a bad taste in a lot of people’s mouths. > > 2.) When Willow went all bad-magic-mojo-mama, it was back in the vein of her trying to use magic to fix things to her liking, albeit on a much more dramatic scale. It wasn’t the drugs metaphor that they’d been drumming from midseason on. And this wouldn’t have been so bad if it were only reflecting some kind of misjudgement that the characters had made. . .but it wasn’t. It was reflecting the Super!Obvious!Metaphor! they’d foisted upon us with characters that they’d invented. > > Basically, if they’d cut out the whole of the middle chunk of that arc, it would’ve been a hell of a lot better. As it was, they addressed it a bit in season seven, but that season had its own problems.[/spoiler] Yes! Exactly! [spoiler]I was very excited about Season 6 after watching “Tabula Rasa” for the first time. IIRC, I actually told one of my friends (the one that had gotten me to watch \*Buffy \*in the first place), “I don’t get why you hate on Season 6 so much. So far, it’s my favorite season yet.” Within two episodes after that, I knew why. Oh God, how I knew why. The Willow “drugs… I mean, magicKS… are bad, m’kay???” subplot is easily my least favorite Buffyverse story arc. It’s hackneyed, unimaginative, beat-you-over-the-head _crap_ that completely subverts what had the potential to be a very interesting story. And it’s a perfect example of the inconsistency issue that plagues Season 6.[/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![bouv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@bouv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bouv)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/462 "2010-07-19T21:26:49Z")
I’m trying to recall…they don’t ever say what Tara’s mom died of, do they? Her at first saying it wasn’t sudden makes me think something slow, like cancer, but then we know from season 4 she has a family that lies to keep control over the women, so do we think it was abuse? There’s a lot of interesting backstory to Tara that was only ever hinted at that we’ll never get to see. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/463 "2010-07-19T21:52:31Z")
I am pretty sure it’s never really mentioned. You never get to know much about anyone’s biological family except Buffy’s and, to a MUCH smaller degree, Xander’s. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/464 "2010-07-19T22:21:46Z")
Not even Buffy’s. Her mother was a character because she was a high school student when it all started. Does she have any cousins? What’s her dad’s new girlfriend like? What about Buffy’s grandparents? We knew more about Tara’s family than we did Willow’s. We saw Willow’s mom once, and Tara’s dad once. Heck, we saw more of Xander’s family than we ever did of Buffy’s. ---
**Author:** ![Waffle\_Decider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/77aa72/32.png) [@Waffle\_Decider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waffle_Decider)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/465 "2010-07-19T22:23:24Z")
I strongly suspect sexual abuse was rampant in Tara’s family. She sure acted weird when they came in town, especially around her brother. Does anyone know what did Anya do for money and stuff before she got her job at the Magic Box in season 5? Did she have her own place before she shacked up with Xander? ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/466 "2010-07-19T22:26:20Z")
Dawn was a full billed character, and Joyce was recurring. We met Xander’s parents once, just like Willow’s mom, and Tara’s extended family. We met more of them, but we didn’t know them as well. Buffy was about her found family, not her biological family. Her friends and Giles obviously mean more to her than anything but Joyce and Dawn. > [@Waffle\_Decider](#): > > I strongly suspect sexual abuse was rampant in Tara’s family. She sure acted weird when they came in town, especially around her brother. > > Does anyone know what did Anya do for money and stuff before she got her job at the Magic Box in season 5? Did she have her own place before she shacked up with Xander? She had her own place, but we don’t know anything about it. In Buffy vs. Dracula, she goes home instead of going to Xander’s because it’s laundry night and she doesn’t like the smell of bleach or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/467 "2010-07-19T22:34:20Z")
It was never stated. She had to live somewhere, of course. But until she and Xander shacked up it was never mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/468 "2010-07-20T00:40:10Z")
Oh, put me in the “I like season 6” group as well. I think it’s way overbashed. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/469 "2010-07-20T02:26:30Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > Oh, put me in the “I like season 6” group as well. I think it’s way overbashed. Totally agree. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/470 "2010-07-20T02:34:55Z")
I started [a poll](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=571471). **olives** , you should probably stay out of the thread because I don’t expect people there to be as good about avoiding spoiling you. ---
**Author:** ![pricciar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@pricciar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pricciar)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/471 "2010-07-20T02:42:20Z")
Yeah. I love season 6. I didn’t realize how maligned it was until this thread was started. This is the second time in the course of this thread that it has come under heavy fire. It really brings emotions high. And, I don’t know from Marti Noxon. But, if someone has creative differences that force them out of Prison Break and Sisters and Brothers only to then land on Mad Men, where they win an emmy, it’s pretty clear which side was right in those particular bouts of creativity. Joss Whedon must still be friendly with her to use her in a cameo role in Dr Horrible’s Sing A Long Blog. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/472 "2010-07-20T03:11:13Z")
> [@pricciar](#): > > Yeah. I love season 6. I didn’t realize how maligned it was until this thread was started. This is the second time in the course of this thread that it has come under heavy fire. It really brings emotions high. > > And, I don’t know from Marti Noxon. But, if someone has creative differences that force them out of Prison Break and Sisters and Brothers only to then land on Mad Men, where they win an emmy, it’s pretty clear which side was right in those particular bouts of creativity. > Joss Whedon must still be friendly with her to use her in a cameo role in Dr Horrible’s Sing A Long Blog. All of the gossip of creative differences and tensions in the writing room was nothing more than that–gossip. It was all generated in the fandom when feelings were running high. S6 was not well liked when it aired, and the way the Internet works, even people who weren’t involved directly in the BtVS fandom would have been aware of these rumors. But they were never anything other than that, and neither Joss nor Noxon have ever indicated that they had any problem with each other whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/473 "2010-07-20T04:12:41Z")
Joss and Marti got along fine. That was never an issue. What’s at issue is that she’s a raving psychotic who worked out her issues with men by fucking with _Buffy_. May she rot for it, too. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/474 "2010-07-20T05:32:13Z")
I think that’s just silly hyperbole, along with the detailed complaints in spoiler boxes. Then again, I have been one of the more vocal supporters of season 6 this whole thread, so no surprise there. Oh and two off-topic things: One, I’m so happy that spoiler boxes no longer display as white text on dark background, as that made my eyes bleed. And two, coding an entire conversation inside a spoiler box works better than I thought it might. > [@Tanbarkie](#): > > Season 6’s weakness isn’t darkness - it’s \*inconsistency. \*For the first time in Buffy’s run, you have characters acting in ways that don’t make sense given what we know about them (or in some particularly bad cases, _just learned_ about them). For example, Buffy and Spike seem to reach some level of begrudging rapprochement several times during the season (crazy sex aside), hinting at a renewal of the respect Spike earned at the end of Season 5… but then the very next episode, they’re back to spitting hate at each other for no apparent reason. I don’t see how you can say there’s no reason. Buffy clearly stated the reason: she was disgusted with herself for sleeping with an evil monster, and ashamed for using him. (Like a drug!) > [@](#): > > The schizophrenia of an unhealthy relationship is something that could have been very interesting to explore, and there are times when Season 6 does so effectively. But you need to show \*why \*the characters are acting bipolar. Hitting the character reset button at the end of each episode (despite the characters supposedly reaching some sort of important epiphany) just confuses and frustrates the audience. It’s bad, lazy writing, and a show like “Buffy” should be above that sort of thing. I never saw any evidence of this reset button. Could you point to an example or two? They must be pretty bad for this to be the reason the season as a whole was so horrible. IMO, they explained very clearly, very slowly, and repeatedly why Buffy was acting so “bipolar.” > [@Angel\_of\_the\_Lord](#): > > I think that this really applies to the other much-maligned subplot of Season Six–namely, the magic addiction. In the beginning, they seemed to be very much on track to frame Willow’s addiction to magic as being psychological in nature. It was addictive in that it allowed her to get whatever she wanted–she got to bring her friend back from the dead, after all, with no thought about whether she should or shouldn’t. She began using magic for mundane tasks–decorating for a party, for instance. When called on it, she used magic to try to fix her significant other to her liking. And then, when she was called on _that_, she did the exact same thing. She took the easy way out instead of trying to put in the work or taking her lumps. > > This was an insightful character arc. The thing is, in the very next freaking episode, they decided that, nope, magic was addictive like drugs were addictive. > […] > I think this pissed a lot of people off, because it was really heavy-handed, and, more importantly, completely inconsistent with where they seemed to have been going with it. The earlier, purely psychological addiction is in no way different from an addiction to drugs. That’s how drug addiction works: start psychologically, become physical. I’m not understanding this complaint, but I could be just missing the underlying point. Could you clarify? As I see it, it was the exact opposite of inconsistent in the sense that it ended up following the same natural progression as any physical addiction. I’m also not understanding your numbered bullet-point complaints. They make no sense to me, but not in the context of I think they’re stupid or anything. I actually do not understand them. Could you rephrase them so I could try to understand? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/475 "2010-07-20T05:59:49Z")
You guys describe shipping, but you forget to tell her that it was originally short for relationship? It just got converted into a verb. Someone who wanted a romantic relationship between Spock and Kirk wanted a Spock/Kirk ship, and thus wanted to ship Kirk and Spock. So they became shippers. (I use Kirk/Spock [usually called K/S] because it is the earliest one I’ve heard of.) ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/476 "2010-07-20T06:18:34Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > [spoiler]The earlier, purely psychological addiction is in no way different from an addiction to drugs. That’s how drug addiction works: start psychologically, become physical. I’m not understanding this complaint, but I could be just missing the underlying point. Could you clarify? As I see it, it was the exact opposite of inconsistent in the sense that it ended up following the same natural progression as any physical addiction. > > I’m also not understanding your numbered bullet-point complaints. They make no sense to me, but not in the context of I think they’re stupid or anything. I actually do not understand them. Could you rephrase them so I could try to understand? > [/spoiler] [spoiler]That’s because you rejected his original complaint, which his subpoints depend on. I also think your like for the season is coloring your perceptions. As proof, I, who have already admitted to not watching Buffy, understood it perfectly. The magic=drug abuse thing is inconsistent. For five years, it was portrayed as a merely psychological addiction. I know of no drug that takes five years for it to switch, and definitely none where it just suddenly happens. According to **AotL** , they just suddenly switched it in the span of one or two episodes. No episodes before this made you even question whether it was actually a physical dependency. That’s an inconsistency. His two bullet points therefore refer to how it became so important that the magic use was the only thing Tara broke up with Willow for (when other reasons were established already.) And that, once Willow starts using magic again, apparently it isn’t a drug, thus negating everything they did in that plot arc. IF this information is accurate, whether I liked the season or not, I would have to agree with **AotL**. It’s inconsistent, and inconsistencies will turn people off.[/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/477 "2010-07-20T07:44:44Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > [spoiler]The magic=drug abuse thing is inconsistent. For five years, it was portrayed as a merely psychological addiction. I know of no drug that takes five years for it to switch, and definitely none where it just suddenly happens. According to **AotL** , they just suddenly switched it in the span of one or two episodes. No episodes before this made you even question whether it was actually a physical dependency. That’s an inconsistency. > > His two bullet points therefore refer to how it became so important that the magic use was the only thing Tara broke up with Willow for (when other reasons were established already.) And that, once Willow starts using magic again, apparently it isn’t a drug, thus negating everything they did in that plot arc. > > IF this information is accurate, whether I liked the season or not, I would have to agree with **AotL**. It’s inconsistent, and inconsistencies will turn people off.[/spoiler] [spoiler]I’m not seeing it. It wasn’t “shown as psychologically addicting for five seasons and then suddenly switched.” Late in season 5 Tara starting voicing her discomfort at Willow’s power. Early in season 6 Tara started worrying about Willow using too much magic to do too many things. Even small stuff (like getting dressed or cleaning up) Willow would use magic for instead of actually physically doing them. In real world addiction, not doing the small stuff is a big red flag. I’ve heard it referred to as ADL, “Adult Daily Living.” Bathing, shaving, taking care of yourself in general. These go out the window for an addict. If Willow wasn’t bothering to actually take care of herself, but instead using magic to avoid her ADLs, then yeah, that would be a legitimate addiction concern. Also, it didn’t suddenly become physically addictive. It was simply a matter of when she finally stopped, she suddenly had to deal with withdrawal symptoms. Like how it works in real life. It is revealed later that Willow’s overuse of magic allowed the First Evil to gain a hold on her. It would be in character for Tara to intuitively understand something bad like this was going on. If so, then it is perfectly consistent for Tara to take her back after she stopped using magic. I mean, it’s lke saying “she took back her alcoholic husband just because he stopped drinking.” A complaint like that makes no sense to me. Also, it never became not like a drug. This is a bizarre complaint. What the writers did is made it so that the magic became an unremoveable part of her. It would be like an alcoholic in recovery who had to tote around a 20 proof IV drip 24/7. How would you deal with that? That’s what the season 7 Willow arc was about.[/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/478 "2010-07-20T07:49:56Z")
Regarding season 6: **Angel of the Lord** gives a really good description of the problem with the inconsistent way they were using magic as a metaphor within season six, but I think the main problem wasn’t within the season itself, but in the larger context of the series. Because in season five, magic was a metaphor for Willow and Tara’s relationship. Suddenly, magic is crack cocaine. This caused some pretty major dissonance. If drugs are bad, and magic is like drugs, and magic is also like being a lesbian, does it then follow that being a lesbian is bad? Obviously, that’s not the message they _wanted_ to send, but it’s really hard not to read it anyway. It puts a real strange twist on all those scenes from season five where Willow and Tara would cast a spell and then look at each other all flushed and breathless, too. First time around, I read that as a metaphor for them having sex. Apparently, I should have viewed it as a metaphor for them sharing a needle. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/479 "2010-07-20T12:43:08Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > You guys describe shipping, but you forget to tell her that it was originally short for relationship? It just got converted into a verb. Someone who wanted a romantic relationship between Spock and Kirk wanted a Spock/Kirk ship, and thus wanted to ship Kirk and Spock. So they became shippers. > > (I use Kirk/Spock [usually called K/S] because it is the earliest one I’ve heard of.) Yeah, basically Kirk/Spock is early, but another common one is actually Hawkeye/Margaret shippers on MASH fansites. They write about how those two eventually “hooked up”. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/480 "2010-07-20T13:23:49Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Joss and Marti got along fine. That was never an issue. What’s at issue is that she’s a raving psychotic who worked out her issues with men by fucking with _Buffy_. May she rot for it, too. Oh, but it’s fine for Joss to put his daddy issues out there for all the world to wince at? The both of them could do with some judicious outside editing, if you want my opinion. “Oh look, I bet it’s a Bad Dad!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107.md?page=25)