# So I'm Finally Watching Buffy... \[Progressive unboxed spoilers\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 11, 2010, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107 "2010-05-11T22:25:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Angel\_of\_the\_Lord](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/angel_of_the_lord/32/2949_2.png) [@Angel\_of\_the\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angel_of_the_Lord)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/481 "2010-07-20T15:24:06Z")
**Season six spoilers ahoy!** > [@EllisDee](#): > > [spoiler]I’m not seeing it. It wasn’t “shown as psychologically addicting for five seasons and then suddenly switched.” > > Late in season 5 Tara starting voicing her discomfort at Willow’s power. Early in season 6 Tara started worrying about Willow using too much magic to do too many things. Even small stuff (like getting dressed or cleaning up) Willow would use magic for instead of actually physically doing them. In real world addiction, not doing the small stuff is a big red flag. I’ve heard it referred to as ADL, “Adult Daily Living.” Bathing, shaving, taking care of yourself in general. These go out the window for an addict. If Willow wasn’t bothering to actually take care of herself, but instead using magic to avoid her ADLs, then yeah, that would be a legitimate addiction concern. > > Also, it didn’t suddenly become physically addictive. It was simply a matter of when she finally stopped, she suddenly had to deal with withdrawal symptoms. Like how it works in real life.[/spoiler] [spoiler]The thing is, to the best of my recollection, they never showed magic as getting you _high_. Would it let the power go to your head? Yes. Would it make you feel empowered, maybe better than everyone else? Yes. Would it potentially lead somewhere very dark? Yes. Would it make you lie there stoned for hours and twirl around like an idiot? Not so much. The magic was psychologically addictive because it empowered Willow; it never seemed escapist in any way. Her biggest abuses of magic weren’t done to get high; they were to fix specific problems in a rash and impulsive manner (an empowerment spell when she and Oz broke up; going after Glory; bringing Buffy back; messing with Tara’s head). Now, while it’s possible that one could lead to another, I don’t think that they justified it enough to have it progress that quickly. Her problem was all with power corrupting, not about the weakness of the flesh. [/spoiler] > [@](#): > > It is revealed later that Willow’s overuse of magic allowed the First Evil to gain a hold on her. It would be in character for Tara to intuitively understand something bad like this was going on. If so, then it is perfectly consistent for Tara to take her back after she stopped using magic. I mean, it’s lke saying “she took back her alcoholic husband just because he stopped drinking.” A complaint like that makes no sense to me. [spoiler]Except that it wasn’t just that she was using magic; it’s that she was attempting to mess with Tara’s head. In “Tabula Rasa,” even after Willow promises no more magic, Tara still seems pretty uncertain about staying. It seemed to me to be more the abuse angle. And while I don’t think that the issues with their relationship were insurmountable, I think they rushed the reconciliation in order to get her to the point of being shot. As for Tara somehow sensing that the First Evil was getting a hold of her. . .well, you’re right; Tara is very intuitive. However, I think that her problems stemmed more from her personal experience. In OMWF, she sings, “You know I’ve been through hell/Willow, don’t you see/there’ll be nothing left of me…” I think that her problems had far more to do with her history of abuse (both in her family and with Glory, though that wasn’t a relationship) as they did with Willow’s overuse of magic.[/spoiler] > [@](#): > > Also, it never became not like a drug. This is a bizarre complaint. What the writers did is made it so that the magic became an unremoveable part of her. It would be like an alcoholic in recovery who had to tote around a 20 proof IV drip 24/7. How would you deal with that? That’s what the season 7 Willow arc was about. See, I disagree; I think it was about learning to use power responsibly. And I think that if you keep it entirely about power corrupting, the season works much better. You can even keep the parallels with Spike and Buffy there, if you do it that way; rough sex can be about power, about feeling powerful or over-powered. But, instead, I think they went with the escapist angle. It worked fine for Buffy, but I think it didn’t work at all for Willow. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/482 "2010-07-20T15:32:13Z")
What, the writers went all Peter Parker with Willow? Not quite buying it. I think they saw too many After-School Specials growing up, and Marti’s “write your psychosis” style of production encouraged them to make crappy decisions. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/483 "2010-07-20T17:10:04Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > Oh, but it’s fine for Joss to put his daddy issues out there for all the world to wince at? The both of them could do with some judicious outside editing, if you want my opinion. “Oh look, I bet it’s a Bad Dad!” As far as I know, Joss and his father (who’s also a TV writer) have a great relationship. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/484 "2010-07-20T19:41:51Z")
Well, for some reason every single dad in a Whedon show that I can think of off the top of my head (I have not seen _Dollhouse_) is a Bad Dad. It got downright ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/485 "2010-07-20T19:49:41Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > Well, for some reason every single dad in a Whedon show that I can think of off the top of my head (I have not seen _Dollhouse_) is a Bad Dad. It got downright ridiculous. If I remember right, no one’s parents show up on Dollhouse. No fathers on Firefly either except for Simon and River’s, and he wasn’t a Bad Dad. Just one that didn’t believe what he thought were Simon’s drunken ramblings. As for the other three shows, I think it’s just the big city “My friends are my family” attitude that you see on nearly every TV show (for example, Friends). Making them evil just fits in well with the Buffyverse. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/486 "2010-07-20T20:11:03Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > You guys describe shipping, but you forget to tell her that it was originally short for relationship? It just got converted into a verb. Someone who wanted a romantic relationship between Spock and Kirk wanted a Spock/Kirk ship, and thus wanted to ship Kirk and Spock. So they became shippers. > > (I use Kirk/Spock [usually called K/S] because it is the earliest one I’ve heard of.) As far as I know, the term “shipping” actually originated in the X-Files fandom. K/S, however, is the originator of the term _slash_. I’m not just a nerd and in fandom, I’m actually a nerd _about_ fandom. btw, my own fandom has ship wars and they are SO FUCKING STUPID I hate it so much. Especially because both popular ships are…morally and ethically questionable, to say the least, and neither will ever, ever, ever in a million years be canon. (The shippers would be delighted if it was canon. Everyone else would be :eek::eek::eek:) And yet people devote many hours and much bandwidth to argue about which is “better”. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/487 "2010-07-20T20:23:35Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > If I remember right, no one’s parents show up on Dollhouse. No fathers on Firefly either except for Simon and River’s, and he wasn’t a Bad Dad. Just one that didn’t believe what he thought were Simon’s drunken ramblings. > > As for the other three shows, I think it’s just the big city “My friends are my family” attitude that you see on nearly every TV show (for example, Friends). Making them evil just fits in well with the Buffyverse. There were serious daddy!issues present in **Dollhouse**. A man doesn’t have to be a biological father in order to be the father-figure in Whedon shows. In fact, the father figure who embodies most of the daddy issues is rarely the biological father, which only adds another layer to it all. ---
**Author:** ![Waffle\_Decider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/77aa72/32.png) [@Waffle\_Decider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waffle_Decider)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/488 "2010-07-20T20:28:20Z")
I guess Cordelia’s dad was bad in the sense that he got caught cheating on his taxes. However, I don’t think there’s any indication that he was Bad in the sense that he abused or neglected his children. ---
**Author:** ![Waffle\_Decider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/77aa72/32.png) [@Waffle\_Decider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waffle_Decider)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/489 "2010-07-20T20:30:33Z")
Oh, and Fred’s parents seemed pretty nice. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/490 "2010-07-20T20:32:08Z")
> [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > There were serious daddy!issues present in **Dollhouse**. A man doesn’t have to be a biological father in order to be the father-figure in Whedon shows. In fact, the father figure who embodies most of the daddy issues is rarely the biological father, which only adds another layer to it all. What daddy issues were present in Dollhouse? I assume you’re referring to… Boyd and his eventual turn to the dark side. But that doesn’t make him a Bad Dad because his/her evilness comes so out of left field that it’s just stupid. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/491 "2010-07-20T20:53:41Z")
> [@Waffle\_Decider](#): > > Oh, and Fred’s parents seemed pretty nice. OTOH, in a world of “might-have-been”: Wesley’s father was Mega-Evil. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/492 "2010-07-20T21:13:35Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > OTOH, in a world of “might-have-been”: > > Wesley’s father was Mega-Evil. [spoiler] What world of “might have been”? Wesley’s father was a very, very shitty father. If there was an avatar of Whedon’s daddy issues, it was Wesley. But it’s silly to try to argue that the Whedonverse characters aren’t rife with parental issues. Angel had daddy issues. Buffy had daddy issues. Xander had daddy issues. Giles had daddy issues. Connor had daddy issues. Wesley and Buffy’s respective daddy issues actually informed a great deal of their relationship with Angel (I’d argue was the very basis for their relationships with Angel). And the characters who didn’t have serious daddy issues had serious issues with their mothers, at times bordering on Oedipal (Or as Angelus said, “Trying to kill your father and screw your mother? Somebody should write a play.”) Spike and Faith were the ones with the biggest mommy issues. [/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/493 "2010-07-20T21:17:51Z")
Faith? When did that come up? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/494 "2010-07-20T21:23:15Z")
The **world** is rife with parent issues. **pepper** - The might-have-been that we actually get an explanation for Daddy Wyndam-Pryce. What organization was he working for? Who else is an android? What is their nefarious scheme? Can Illyria kick their asses? You know, that stuff. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Waffle\_Decider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/77aa72/32.png) [@Waffle\_Decider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waffle_Decider)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/495 "2010-07-20T21:23:58Z")
I agree that most of the characters in Whedonverse have some serious parental issues. I’m just trying to counter the assertion earlier that every single dad is a Bad Dad in Whedonverse. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/496 "2010-07-20T21:28:08Z")
Missed the edit window. **Miller** - from Wiki: _Petrie claims Faith’s main motivation is to find a family and friends; she sees treacherous Watcher Gwendolyn Post as **the mother she never had** , the Scooby Gang as the friends she never had, and the Mayor as the father she never had. “So she’s always looking for a family and always coming up short and making these horrible choices, and it drove her insane” says Petrie. “Plus I think she was missing a couple of screws to begin with. ‘If you don’t love me, you will fear me,’ is kind of her m.o. She’s not a stable girl, but a fun one.”_ Faith Lehane was one seriously fucked-up girl. But her father-figure was nothing but loving, caring and supportive of her. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/497 "2010-07-20T22:18:19Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > The **world** is rife with parent issues. > > **pepper** - The might-have-been that we actually get an explanation for Daddy Wyndam-Pryce. What organization was he working for? Who else is an android? What is their nefarious scheme? Can Illyria kick their asses? You know, that stuff. 😃 [spoiler] Oh yeah, we never did find out what the robot thing was all about. I just meant that Roger Wyndam-Pryce was clearly a POS and the whole time he was being snide and dismissive of Wesley’s life, Wes never once questioned his behavior. Even when he was put into a position to shoot and kill his own father, he never said “This is strange. My father would never do this.” I also like that, when given the opportunity to kill his father, he _emptied the gun_ into his chest. Wesley doesn’t do shit by halves. [/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/498 "2010-07-20T22:22:00Z")
> [@Waffle\_Decider](#): > > I’m just trying to counter the assertion earlier that every single dad is a Bad Dad in Whedonverse. I mean wouldn’t Giles count as a good Dad? It’s pretty clear that’s the role he plays for Buffy. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/499 "2010-07-20T22:33:29Z")
But even Giles shafted Buffy when ordered to. For a while. (“Helpless” - Season 3, Episode 12) ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/500 "2010-07-21T00:46:09Z")
Spoilers re Giles S6-S7 I’d say Giles betrayed Buffy more than any other father figure in all of Whedon’s show. First by leaving her when he knew of her abandonment issues, and then constantly questioning/undermining her in S7 when she was behaving like the leader and adult he had ostensibly wanted her to be. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107.md?page=26)