# So I'm Finally Watching Buffy... \[Progressive unboxed spoilers\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 11, 2010, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107 "2010-05-11T22:25:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/41 "2010-05-12T15:44:31Z")
One of the developments starting during the seasons 4/5 I didn’t like at all was the idea that vampires can choose to NOT be vicious predators if someone takes the time to “socialize” them properly. It turned the Slayer pretty much into a mass murderer who killed indiscriminately everyone who belonged to a certain “ethnicity”, regardless of their acts. It also made you wonder what was wrong with Liam/Angel/Angelus. If the vampire Spike could choose even _without a soul_ not to kill and feed on humans, why wasn’t the other guy, the so called hero, able to do so? Btw, did they ever explain why Anya was afraid of bunnies? I can’t remember. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/42 "2010-05-12T15:58:04Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > For me, the easiest example I can give is > > Also Buffy never actually learns to make good relationship choices (Spike rapes her and that makes her like rough sex?!) or to stand up for herself (except at the very, VERY end of the show…she should have been telling the Watcher’s Council to go screw themselves back around S4 or so.) [spoiler]Huh? Buffy was having rough sex with Spike all season long. She stopped doing that, and THEN he raped her. And she told the Watcher’s Council to screw in Season 3. Never saw them again until S5 when she needed their help (albeit not as bad as they needed hers) with Glory.[/spoiler] And I’ll just type this here so that something in this post is visible. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/43 "2010-05-12T16:17:28Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > [spoiler]Huh? Buffy was having rough sex with Spike all season long. She stopped doing that, and THEN he raped her. > > And she told the Watcher’s Council to screw in Season 3. Never saw them again until S5 when she needed their help (albeit not as bad as they needed hers) with Glory.[/spoiler] > And I’ll just type this here so that something in this post is visible. 😃 Are you sure? I only saw it the one time, but I’d swear it was the other way round: they were teasing and being ‘naughty’, then suddenly he rapes her, she takes a few episodes to get over it and then they start having creepy rough sex. Am I misremembering? Ditto on fake sentence for visiblity. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/44 "2010-05-12T16:28:16Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Are you sure? I only saw it the one time, but I’d swear it was the other way round: they were teasing and being ‘naughty’, then suddenly he rapes her, she takes a few episodes to get over it and then they start having creepy rough sex. Am I misremembering? You’re misremembering. They have sex for the first time in “Smashed” (ep. 9); the rape happens in ep. 19, “Seeing Red”. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/45 "2010-05-12T16:58:21Z")
I didn’t get that he actually raped her… are we talking about the scene in the bathroom? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/46 "2010-05-12T17:15:56Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > I didn’t get that he actually raped her… are we talking about the scene in the bathroom? > > 😕 Yup. That would be the scene. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/47 "2010-05-12T17:25:19Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Yup. That would be the scene. Yes, that was the scene that _ended_ their sexual relationship, not kindled it. Lorem ipsum. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/48 "2010-05-12T18:25:55Z")
> [@melodyharmonius](#): > > OK - I have a question. Before you started watching the series, did you watch the original movie? I watched the original movie a loooong time ago, when I was a kid, and yes, it was terrible. Ok, just finished Episode 8. I will definitely be back after watching some more. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/49 "2010-05-12T19:10:54Z")
I agree with the notion that the tipping point is mid-season 2. Season 1 is campy and bad without Whedon’s usual witty banter. By the middle of 2, it’s a lot better, and 3 is good TV. It’s not groundbreaking, nor so good as Firefly, but worth watching. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/50 "2010-05-12T20:29:34Z")
> [@wintertime](#): > > One of the developments starting during the seasons 4/5 I didn’t like at all was the > > idea that vampires can choose to NOT be vicious predators if someone takes the time to “socialize” them properly. It turned the Slayer pretty much into a mass murderer who killed indiscriminately everyone who belonged to a certain “ethnicity”, regardless of their acts. > > It also made you wonder what was wrong with Liam/Angel/Angelus. If the vampire Spike could choose even _without a soul_ not to kill and feed on humans, why wasn’t the other guy, the so called hero, able to do so? That’s not at all what happened. Spike had a device implanted in his brain that made it impossible for him to hurt humans. His change of lifestyle sprang from that, not from any choice. ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/51 "2010-05-12T20:38:41Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > I watched the original movie a loooong time ago, when I was a kid, and yes, it was terrible. > > Ok, just finished Episode 8. I will definitely be back after watching some more. Hey I liked the movie! It was a huge surprise. But I haven’t seen the television show. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/52 "2010-05-12T20:52:26Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > That’s not at all what happened. > > Spike had a device implanted in his brain that made it impossible for him to hurt humans. His change of lifestyle sprang from that, not from any choice. Not only that, but he had no problem watching Drusilla kill humans in front of him and then drinking their blood. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/53 "2010-05-12T20:53:27Z")
Yeah, but what about this: Hey. Thanks for clicking this link. I feel so warm and gooey inside. But I think most people feel that way inside so I’m not really going to call myself special. Over this, anyway. What was I talking about? Oh yeah. Remember that person in the OP, olivesmarch4th, who kinda wanted to know about Buffy? Remember how she’s halfway through Season 2? That’s like 20% of the way through the entire story. So yeah, it’s awesome that you guys want to use this one thread to talk about what you apparently can’t talk about in the other 1.21 gigawatts of other threads on Buffy, and even more awesome that we’re all using spoilers…for now. But it’s really not helping the OP all that much and it’s only a matter of time before someone goes “OH MY GOD IT WAS SO SAD WHEN TARA AND ANYA DIED!..oh crap. Was I supposed to spoiler that?” ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/54 "2010-05-12T20:54:47Z")
Not cool, Ender. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/55 "2010-05-12T21:19:52Z")
At least nobody has mentioned that: Giles is really Buffy’s father. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/56 "2010-05-12T21:21:29Z")
[quote=“Enderw24, post:53, topic:539107”] Yeah, but what about this: About 4 years ago over on the Unaboard, I did _exactly_ what olivesmarch is doing (watching Buffy from scratch) and did this sort of thread. It was a _blast_ to go back and read the spoilered stuff in my thread after the fact. As an aside, Olivesmarch, there’s some episodes that require a crossover with Angel–the episode starts in Angel and ends in Buffy (or the other 'way round). Someone better versed (PLG?) can give you the required crossovers. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/57 "2010-05-12T21:22:35Z")
**Enderw24** , you’re threadshitting. Knock it off. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/58 "2010-05-12T21:23:58Z")
> [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > Yes, that pretty much describes my situation- losing enthusiasm throughout S6 and S7. But we basically rewatched S7 recently, and I was utterly charmed by it. This time around, i really felt like Buffy _had_ learned the lessons from S6. We tried to rewatch S6 too, but it’s still too, well, painful. I identify too much with Buffy’s sense of hopelessness right now, I think Season 7 of Buffy is the only season of television which improves when watching it on DVD, IMHO. When it aired, it was soooooo sloooooow! I was all, “When is she going to stop speechifying and kill something?!” On DVD, watching one episode after another, it’s breathtaking in the quickness of the pace. I was simply blown away by how good it was, when I remembered it as tedious with a few high points. **olives** , I agree with the majority of posters - give it a few eps into season 3. If you’re not into it by then, don’t waste your time with the rest, you’re just not a Buffy girl. And really, that’s okay! Life is too short to waste it watching what you’re not into, even if tons of other people like it (says the girl who gave up on Heroes in season 1). ---
**Author:** ![Tanbarkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@Tanbarkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tanbarkie)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/59 "2010-05-12T21:51:54Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Season 7 of Buffy is the only season of television which improves when watching it on DVD, IMHO. When it aired, it was soooooo sloooooow! I was all, “When is she going to stop speechifying and kill something?!” > > On DVD, watching one episode after another, it’s breathtaking in the quickness of the pace. I was simply blown away by how good it was, when I remembered it as tedious with a few high points. That’s funny, because I only started watching Buffy after the show ended, and despite zooming through the DVDs, season 7 _still_ suffered from the syndrome you describe. If anything, watching episodes back to back seemed to amplify the annoying aspects of that season - when you see Buffy give the same goddamned “YOU’RE ALL GOING TO DIE” speech five episodes in a row, it’s horrendously irritating in a way that makes you kind of wish you had a week in between episodes to forget about the last one. IOW, I suspect your enjoyment of season 7 on DVD has more to do with it _not being the first time you watched season 7_ than it being on DVD, per se. When you don’t know _when_ the annoying shit ends, it ends up feeling interminable whether you take five months to watch the full season or five days. ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107/60 "2010-05-12T23:37:05Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > That’s not at all what happened. > > Spike had a device implanted in his brain that made it impossible for him to hurt humans. His change of lifestyle sprang from that, not from any choice. I disagree. I didn’t forget the chip: it inhibited Spike’s murderous tendencies for quite some time more or less reliably, but I don’t think, it was the sole reason for his change – or even the most important one. We had already learned through the Judge (in “Surprise” and “Innocence”) in season 2 that some vampires, like Angelus, are devoid of any humanity while others, like Drusilla and Spike, are closer to humans – close enough, in fact, that the Judge was able to burn them (the bookworm Dalton), while he failed to do anything to Angelus. So, vampires weren’t equal in the Buffyverse, there were differences that suggest that some were more human while others were more demonic in nature. In season 3 (“Lovers Walk”) for example, Spike is not just heart-broken and full of self-pity, he also shows other feelings, like gratitude, towards Willow and Joyce and decides to not kill them even though he has the chance. In “Out of My Mind”, Spike realises that he has fallen in love with Buffy and in “Intervention” he rather lets Glory torture him than reveal to her the identity of the Key. And after Buffy’s death he remains with the gang to help them in their fight. Sure, the chip made it impossible for him to bite a human, but it didn’t force him to help them – and he showed from time to time that he was quite capable of endangering them by helping other baddies with information. But more and more often, he chose to help the gang – and more than ever after Buffy’s death. Which shows that a vampire could choose his life in the Buffyverse, at least the ones who were not totally demonic. I don’t know if the writers intended to show that a vampire has free will and might even redeem himself without gaining a soul first but, imo, that’s exactly what they have done. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-im-finally-watching-buffy-progressive-unboxed-spoilers/539107.md?page=4)