Meh. DS9 never clicked for me, mainly because I couldn’t stand the lead actor.
Back to the thread…I agree with the posters above. Wesley becomes one of my favorite characters in the Whedonverse. It takes a whole 'nother series to do it, but he does. I also agree that “Bad Girls” kicks off a seriously awesome arc.
ixNay on the esleyWay; let olive approach the characters with a fresh perspective.
Of course you’re all correct. But why artificially raise expectations, or ruin the surprise of his transition? If only just to let her be surprised when he first shows up halfway through the first season of Angel?
I agree.What makes W. “rock” later is the contrast with our expectations, because he was such a weasel in Buffy. So let’s not give olives a reason to go “huh? they’re nuts! he’s a frikkin weasel!” Let her enjoy his weaseldom, and then come upon his awesomeness in due time, as it was meant to be.
Hrmm… hadn’t realized you were such a DS9 fan when I mentioned it. I actually put the episode title I was referring to in my post (Far Beyond the Stars) but if you don’t recall that DS9 episode by name, don’t look it up, because it might minorly spoil the Buffy Episode “Normal Again” for you.
My point, which I could have been less cutesy and vague in relaying was: “Normal Again” was great for all the reasons lissener mentioned in Post #197, but I had a major case of “Hey, didn’t they do this already on DS9?” because it reminded me greatly of “Far Beyond the Stars”.
Okay, I’ll wait and see. I have the feeling I will love ‘‘Normal Again.’’ Someone used the word subversive. Always a good sign for me.
Don’t feel bad if it doesn’t float your boat. Opinions are rather starkly divided about the episode. I loved it, while my wife wants Joss beaten because of it. Not with bones broken or anything, just a little reminder that “things can happen, capice?” 
I think it’s an excellent episode.
(And now I’m wishing* DS9* were as easily available on Netflix–I saw a bunch of episodes but don’t think I gave the series a real chance.)
DS9 is great. These days, I think of it as “Battlestar Galactica, Beta Version,” because it’s obvious that Ron Moore basically used DS9 as a testing ground for the ideas he’d later bring to fruition in BSG.
I used the word ‘‘Buffyverse’’ for the first time the other day.
I really have to say, it’s great watching the series unfold, but having this ongoing thread makes for twice the fun. I really appreciate ya’ll sharing your impressions with me!
Ok. I watched the show well after it was cancelled on DVD and really loved it. I knew there was some seasons that were not liked by some fans (I recall reading “Season X never happened. I don’t know what you are talking about.” type quotes) but, I never realized that the final couple of seasons are the ones that are so reviled. I love them. My least favorite is season 1, by far.
Actually, a lot of common buffy fan opinion being volleyed around is awfully surprising to me.
Some Buffy thoughts mostly centered on the later seasons:
[spoiler]I am really surprised there is any Riley hate. I found him annoying and sanctimonious at times, but overall a good fun character. As Xander put it, he was a good male presence to make up for Oz’s absence.
When people talked about a season that didn’t exist I really thought they meant the Dawn year. Because, of Trachtenberg’s whinyness or something. I loved it, but I was guessing that messing with the audience might not have been popular. Good to hear it was. Because, I thought that was a brilliant season.
How awesome that Dawn was foreshadowed in a dream oh so many seasons before?
I am also really surprised to hear that the musical episode isn’t universally loved. I thought it was really well done. Both, for the novelty of it and the fact that major plot points were explored deeply. And, great ending!
I thought Hush was good. But, overrated.
I loved Normal Again. And, wouldn’t have minded if it were a series ending episode. Reading that DS9 episode synopsis makes me wish I could see that, as well.
I disagree with most of Justin’s problems with season 6. On the other hand, I do agree that it sucks that there seems to be an idea in the show that no relationship can possibly last and they should all be ended heart breakingly. Someone could have gotten a break here or there without hurting drama.
In general, and I assume this will be a very unpopular opinion, I did not care for the character Xander. He just rubbed me the wrong way. Now and again he would be brave and awesome. Or really funny and cool. But, all too often his overprotectiveness came across to me as controlling and not as caring as it might to someone else. Perhaps, this is because he jilted Anya, a favorite!
Even if I abhored everything else about the final season. It would be made up by how awesome Andrew was. Even more so - how awesome his interplay with Spike was.
[/spoiler]
In response to above spoiler:[spoiler]Yes, Andrew is hands down my alltime favorite character (“I prefer to to think of myself as a guestage.”) although Evil Willow is a close second.
Yes, Xander was the least of all the characters for me. I liked, though, that the “heart” of the show was a guy; that part is NEVER a guy. And a straight guy at that!
And no, the season people refuse to accept is Season 6, because it was such a “downer.” To which I say, I want to live YOUR life, if you don’t see downers as part of growing up.
And yeah, the musical ep had a high probability of suckitude, but it didn’t pan out that way. There were some honest to god chills in that ep. Although I’m still not sure how I feel about Ben Vereen as a demon . . .
Oh and, I don’t know so much about Riley hate; but yeah, count me in on the Riley apathy. He even *looks *like he’s had all his edges sanded down. About as much charisma as a bowl of soggy generic cheerios. Whenever I picture him in my mind, he’s the color of cardboard. Head to foot, hair and skin, gray legal-pad cardboard. Yaaaaaaaawn.[/spoiler]
Reply to lissener:
Season 6 is awfully (Wow. It feels wrong to capitalize season, but it looks wrong not to) dark. But, this reminds me of something I love about the season (which I think I saw as a complaint here or there in this thread.) I love that the Big Bads in this season are so incompetent and full of comic relief. You are watching and seeing edges of darkness in Warren in an episode here or there. But, it’s mostly laughed off with a funny line from Johnathon or a geeky reference.
The entire season we are along on this fun ride with most of the drama and dark moments coming from internal interpersonal struggles and this outside main enemy is a big joke. There is a bump here or a bump there with Warren reshowing that edge, but mostly it seems that these guys are just jokes. Until, that very jarring episode when he seeks revenge not with magic, not with demons, not even with a contraption, but with a very natural force of destruction. The whimsy and fun of this trio of miscreants is gut punched by this action. For me, the gun violence’s reality was magnified by how out of place it was in a show featuring all manner of supernatural havoc. His competent actions were highlighted by the incompetence of the crew the rest of the season. It sucked and it was sad. But, it was good drama.
On Riley:
My major beefs are with middle-period Riley. He was cool as the TA/commando/confused guy, but he totally lost me as Buffy’s boot-knocker and patron of vamp-hos. I actually felt sorry for him when he left. That episode (Into the Woods) was a standout.
That makes the musical episode make a lot more sense. A big part of why I didn’t like it was the ending.
Nope, that doesn’t work.
In Selfless there’s a flashback to the musical stuff, and Xander is dreaming and muttering about how he just wants to make sure everybody has a “happy ending.” Which was his stated justification for summoning Sweet.
Saw Doppelgangland. Another hilarious episode, on par with The Zeppo.
That moment where Willow, disguised as DoppelWillow, tries to subtly wave to Oz had me nearly falling of the couch.
I think for these two episodes alone, Season 3 is outpacing Season 2. I hope they keep playing around like this. It’s great fun.
Not only that, but yay character development!
[SPOILER]Buffy actually told someone about Faith killing a dude. I was so proud.
Buffy is being incredibly naive about Faith if you ask me – Faith totally crossed the ‘‘redemption’’ line in my eyes the moment she almost strangled Xander. That bitch is C-R-A-Z-Y.
But as Sr. Olives points out, that naivete fits Buffy’s character. Especially when it comes to Faith–I think she definitely sees Faith as an alternate version of herself. She does have some of the same instincts, the same desires, but she has chosen differently, so I think she feel some kind of obligation to help Faith overcome her own demons.[/SPOILER]
“Doppelgangland” should have answered a few of your questions about where a vamp’s personality comes from. As far as the playing around goes…you have 6 episodes left in Season 3. One is a stand-alone (“Earshot”). The others are heavy arc-finishers. The last 3 are damn-near perfect.
Over here on Logo they are up to Doublemeat Palace…[spoiler]…which really holds up well. It is every bit as full of suck as I remember it being, 9 years ago when I watched it for the first and last time until now.
I remember not liking the Troll episode in season 5 when it first aired, but now I rather like that episode. The bickering between Willow and Anya in particular is great fun.
Doublemeat Palace, OTOH, sucked on first airing and sucks now. The monster of the week was stupid and offputting, and worse, the whole episode was nothing but Buffy vs the monster of the week. Where’s the scooby gang? No offense to the smokin’ hot Sarah Michelle Gellar, who often displays stellar acting chops like when Faith switched bodies, but Buffy is probably the least compelling character on the show.
I mean, even Xander-specific episodes rock the house. But an episode with nothing but Buffy? Ugh, no thanks, I’ll pass. I blame this shitty episode for a lot of the hate that S6 gets.[/spoiler]
Trivia for the OP is that Earshot wasn’t aired during season 3, but delayed a full year to be aired (completely out of context) during season 4. See if you can guess why once you see it.
Earshot was only delayed six months. It aired in September, two weeks before season 4 began and in the correct spot in the rerun order (remember when serialized show used to show reruns?).
“Doublemeat Palace?” That episode wasn’t included on my Season 6 DVDs. Must be the episode that got damaged in transit. Such a shame. The whole section of the DVD was scarred, like someong took a screwdriver and hacked at the disc in anger.