oooh, I forgot all about “Enemies”! Yeah, that is awesome. Rewatching, knowing what is really going on, is quite fun. I didn’t catch it the first time either, but the whole thing reads very differently the second time.
That’s one of the joys of coming back to a series years later. You can catch things you never noticed before. The series is littered with clues, hints, references and throw-aways that might not be that obvious upon first viewing, but jump out when re-watched.
I also find it interesting that I adored Eliza Dushku as Faith, but absolutely loathed her as Echo. She shines during this arc.
I’m a big fan of Angel and Buffy. I watched them both on their original run and have them all on DVD. I think Angel is a better show than Buffy, more theatrical, epic, dark, almost Greek or Shakespearean in its tragedy, though I still have both in my top 10 shows of all time.
My ranking of Buffy seasons goes 2, 3, 4, 7, 5, 1, 6.
Also, spoiler for AtS
[spoiler]Or it could just be that Angel’s relationship with Cordelia was not the true love that he had with Buffy, therefore the sex wouldn’t have been as meaningful.
Also, it reflects a couple of realities of writing the show. It would be redundant if every time Angel had sex with someone, even someone that he cares for, he loses his soul. It’s a very limiting plot device if it’s consistently used.
And it reflects some of the more “mature” or “adult” themes of Angel. Buffy, particularly, the early years is more about a teenage perspective and particularly a female teenage perspective. Buffy’s first sexual encounter with her first true boyfriend should of course be treated as a big deal for the show and for her personally, and subsequently for Angel as well. It had to turn Angel evil otherwise it sort of violates a fundamental pillar of the show’s perspective. However, with AtS, Angel’s a different character and the show has a different perspective. After having been through hell literally, having a son, losing a son, being betrayed by a close friend, etc. etc. it would be underwhelming if just consummation of a relationship was enough to override all of that. It seems almost naive by comparison.[/spoiler]
Wesley: If what? If you achieve a moment of perfect happiness?
Angel: I turn back into Angelus, and we don’t want that. . . What?
Wesley: Ninety nine point nine nine nine ad infinitum percent of the best relationships in the recorded history of the world have had to make do with acceptable happiness.
Another thing to realize is that Buffy was Angel’s first real relationship in over a hundred years. Yes, it was a big deal to her because she was a high school girl and he was her first boyfriend. But it was also a HUGE deal to him because it was the first human interaction he’d had in decades and his first sex since being resouled.
In some ways, it was probably more meaningful to Angel than it was to Buffy.
Spoilers for Angel The Series:
Building on this, Angel’s reintroduction into the human world was a heavily used theme throughout the entire series. Of course his future sexual experiences (including Darla, Eve and the Werewolf Girl) wouldn’t be as big a deal as his first time.
I’d go as far as to argue that not only was it his first real relationship in over a hundred years, but his first real relationship EVER.
Any of the Angel as human flashbacks as shown him to be a drunken idiot who would have indiscriminate sex with any one, with no significant relationships (positive) ever.
Spoilers for AtS
Strangely enough, though, he really thought having sex with Darla would be enough to give him his perfect happy. She was pretty offended when that didn’t happen. I don’t know why he thought it would, though. He never loved her and he pretty much hated her that night.
Maybe he thought that orgasm = perfect happiness, and that’s all it took. I guess he learned right quick there’s more to happiness than CENSORED
Finished with ‘‘Earshot.’’ I figured out right away why they pulled the show and aired it late. I remember the Columbine shooting like it was yesterday – that event had a far greater effect on me than 9-11 did. I was a freshman in high school and remember watching the footage on CNN with my heart in my throat.
I think they made the right choice not to air. A week is too soon.
‘‘Earshot’’ is a good example of what I love about this show – it can pull off a memorable dramatic scene, like the one between Buffy and Jonathan, and then switch immediately to something ridiculous like Xander catching the lunchlady pouring rat poisoning into the food. The way it switches seamlessly from realistic drama to almost cartoonish horror is just brilliant.
And oh my god, Oz and Cordelia’s thoughts! We died.
Oh, and I can’t remember for sure, but I think this is the episode where the following exchange takes place:
Buffy: You’re funny.
Angel (with same deadpan, brooding expression as always): I’m a funny guy.
ROFL.
The adventure continues tonight…
Did you say you were going to start watching Angel alongside Buffy after you get through season 3?
Yeah absolutely. He’s my favorite character.
Giles: Feel up to some training?
Buffy: Sure, we could work-out after school, you know, if you’re not too busy having sex with my mother!
[Giles walks into a tree.]
I’d recommend you watch them in airdate order. First a little history on the two shows.
Buffy aired Tuesdays at 8pm. When Angel spun off, it followed right after at 9pm on the same night. For two seasons they were joined at the hip, always on the same night and almost always taking the same weeks off.
Then Buffy got too expensive and the WB cancelled it. UPN revived it, bringing us the hotly debated seasons 6 and 7. UPN kept Buffy on Tuesdays, but the WB promptly moved Angel to Mondays. Their breaks were no longer synched up, either; there were stretches where one show would air several new episodes while the other was on break.
Many times during the run of Angel the action on the two shows intersected. Sometimes with full-blown crossovers, sometimes with minor (but fun to spot) touches. But if you don’t view the shows in chronological airdate order, you’ll miss out on some of the crossover goodness.
In short, for the first two contemporaneous seasons, to go in order watch one episode of Buffy then one of Angel. For the next two seasons, in general it’s one Angel then one Buffy, with exceptions noted for unsynched breaks.
I printed out this complete list when I decided to rewatch Buffy so I could synch up the crossovers with the Angel repeats on TNT. (Some happened even after Buffy switched networks.) If you copy and paste the list to a text file, then print that text file from Word using Landscape it should print out pretty well. You may want to position page breaks along season breaks, but otherwise it should work fine.
1-01 Mar 10, 1997 Welcome to the Hellmouth (1) 5-01 Oct 1, 2003 Conviction (1)
1-02 Mar 10, 1997 The Harvest (2) 5-02 Oct 8, 2003 Just Rewards (2)
1-03 Mar 17, 1997 The Witch 5-03 Oct 15, 2003 Unleashed
1-04 Mar 25, 1997 Teacher's Pet 5-04 Oct 22, 2003 Hell Bound
1-05 Mar 31, 1997 Never Kill a Boy... 5-05 Oct 29, 2003 Life of the Party
1-06 Apr 7, 1997 The Pack 5-06 Nov 5, 2003 The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco
1-07 Apr 14, 1997 Angel 5-07 Nov 12, 2003 Lineage
1-08 Apr 28, 1997 I, Robot... You, Jane 5-08 Nov 19, 2003 Destiny
1-09 May 5, 1997 The Puppet Show 5-09 Jan 14, 2004 Harm's Way
1-10 May 12, 1997 Nightmares 5-10 Jan 21, 2004 Soul Purpose
1-11 May 19, 1997 Out of Mind, Out of Sight 5-11 Jan 28, 2004 Damage
1-12 Jun 2, 1997 Prophecy Girl 5-12 Feb 4, 2004 You're Welcome
5-13 Feb 11, 2004 Why We Fight
2-01 Sep 15, 1997 When She Was Bad 5-14 Feb 18, 2004 Smile Time
2-02 Sep 22, 1997 Some Assembly Required 5-15 Feb 25, 2004 A Hole in the World
2-03 Sep 29, 1997 School Hard 5-16 Mar 3, 2004 Shells
2-04 Oct 6, 1997 Inca Mummy Girl 5-17 Apr 14, 2004 Underneath
2-05 Oct 13, 1997 Reptile Boy 5-18 Apr 21, 2004 Origin
2-06 Oct 27, 1997 Halloween 5-19 Apr 28, 2004 Time Bomb
2-07 Nov 3, 1997 Lie to Me 5-20 May 5, 2004 The Girl in Question
2-08 Nov 10, 1997 The Dark Age 5-21 May 12, 2004 Power Play
2-09 Nov 17, 1997 What's My Line? (1) 5-22 May 19, 2004 Not Fade Away
2-10 Nov 24, 1997 What's My Line? (2)
2-11 Dec 8, 1997 Ted
2-12 Jan 12, 1998 Bad Eggs
2-13 Jan 19, 1998 Surprise (1)
2-14 Jan 20, 1998 Innocence (2)
2-15 Jan 27, 1998 Phases
2-16 Feb 10, 1998 Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered
2-17 Feb 24, 1998 Passion
2-18 Mar 3, 1998 Killed by Death
2-19 Apr 28, 1998 I Only Have Eyes For You
2-20 May 5, 1998 Go Fish
2-21 May 12, 1998 Becoming (1)
2-22 May 19, 1998 Becoming (2)
3-01 Sep 29, 1998 Anne
3-02 Oct 6, 1998 Dead Man's Party
3-03 Oct 13, 1998 Faith, Hope & Trick
3-04 Oct 20, 1998 Beauty and the Beasts
3-05 Nov 3, 1998 Homecoming
3-06 Nov 10, 1998 Band Candy
3-07 Nov 17, 1998 Revelations
3-08 Nov 24, 1998 Lover's Walk
3-09 Dec 8, 1998 The Wish
3-10 Dec 15, 1998 Amends
3-11 Jan 12, 1999 Gingerbread
3-12 Jan 19, 1999 Helpless
3-13 Jan 26, 1999 The Zeppo
3-14 Feb 9, 1999 Bad Girls
3-15 Feb 16, 1999 Consequences
3-16 Feb 23, 1999 Doppelgangland
3-17 Mar 16, 1999 Enemies
3-18 Sep 21, 1999 Earshot
3-19 May 4, 1999 Choices
3-20 May 11, 1999 The Prom
3-21 May 18, 1999 Graduation Day (1)
3-22 Jul 13, 1999 Graduation Day (2)
4-01 Oct 5, 1999 The Freshman 1-01 Oct 5, 1999 City Of
4-02 Oct 12, 1999 Living Conditions 1-02 Oct 12, 1999 Lonely Hearts
4-03 Oct 19, 1999 The Harsh Light of Day 1-03 Oct 19, 1999 In the Dark
4-04 Oct 26, 1999 Fear, Itself 1-04 Oct 26, 1999 I Fall to Pieces
4-05 Nov 2, 1999 Beer Bad 1-05 Nov 2, 1999 Rm w/a Vu
4-06 Nov 9, 1999 Wild At Heart 1-06 Nov 9, 1999 Sense & Sensitivity
4-07 Nov 16, 1999 The Initiative 1-07 Nov 16, 1999 Bachelor Party
4-08 Nov 23, 1999 Pangs 1-08 Nov 23, 1999 I Will Remember You
4-09 Nov 30, 1999 Something Blue 1-09 Nov 30, 1999 Hero
4-10 Dec 14, 1999 Hush 1-10 Dec 14, 1999 Parting Gifts
4-11 Jan 18, 2000 Doomed 1-11 Jan 18, 2000 Somnambulist
4-12 Jan 25, 2000 A New Man 1-12 Jan 25, 2000 Expecting
4-13 Feb 8, 2000 The I In Team 1-13 Feb 8, 2000 She
4-14 Feb 15, 2000 Goodbye Iowa 1-14 Feb 15, 2000 I've Got You Under My Skin
4-15 Feb 22, 2000 This Year's Girl (1) 1-15 Feb 22, 2000 The Prodigal
4-16 Feb 29, 2000 Who Are You? (2) 1-16 Feb 29, 2000 The Ring
4-17 Apr 4, 2000 Superstar 1-17 Apr 4, 2000 Eternity
4-18 Apr 25, 2000 Where the Wild Things Are 1-18 Apr 25, 2000 Five by Five
4-19 May 2, 2000 New Moon Rising 1-19 May 2, 2000 Sanctuary
4-20 May 9, 2000 The Yoko Factor (1) 1-20 May 9, 2000 War Zone
4-21 May 16, 2000 Primeval (2) 1-21 May 16, 2000 Blind Date
4-22 May 23, 2000 Restless 1-22 May 23, 2000 To Shanshu in L.A.
5-01 Sep 26, 2000 Buffy vs. Dracula 2-01 Sep 26, 2000 Judgment
5-02 Oct 3, 2000 Real Me 2-02 Oct 3, 2000 Are You Now or Have You Ever Been
5-03 Oct 10, 2000 The Replacement 2-03 Oct 10, 2000 First Impressions
5-04 Oct 17, 2000 Out of My Mind 2-04 Oct 17, 2000 Untouched
5-05 Oct 24, 2000 No Place Like Home 2-05 Oct 24, 2000 Dear Boy
5-06 Nov 7, 2000 Family 2-06 Nov 7, 2000 Guise Will Be Guise
5-07 Nov 14, 2000 Fool for Love 2-07 Nov 14, 2000 Darla
5-08 Nov 21, 2000 Shadow 2-08 Nov 21, 2000 The Shroud of Rahmon
5-09 Nov 28, 2000 Listening to Fear 2-09 Nov 28, 2000 The Trial
5-10 Dec 19, 2000 Into the Woods 2-10 Dec 19, 2000 Reunion
5-11 Jan 9, 2001 Triangle 2-11 Jan 16, 2001 Redefinition
5-12 Jan 23, 2001 Checkpoint 2-12 Jan 23, 2001 Blood Money
5-13 Feb 6, 2001 Blood Ties 2-13 Feb 6, 2001 Happy Anniversary
5-14 Feb 13, 2001 Crush 2-14 Feb 13, 2001 The Thin Dead Line
5-15 Feb 20, 2001 I Was Made to Love You 2-15 Feb 20, 2001 Reprise
5-16 Feb 27, 2001 The Body 2-16 Feb 27, 2001 Epiphany
5-17 Apr 17, 2001 Forever 2-17 Apr 17, 2001 Disharmony
5-18 Apr 24, 2001 Intervention 2-18 Apr 24, 2001 Dead End
5-19 May 1, 2001 Tough Love 2-19 May 1, 2001 Belonging
5-20 May 8, 2001 Spiral 2-20 May 8, 2001 Over the Rainbow
5-21 May 15, 2001 The Weight of the World 2-21 May 15, 2001 Through the Looking Glass
5-22 May 22, 2001 The Gift 2-22 May 22, 2001 There's No Place Like Plrtz Glrb
6-01 Oct 2, 2001 Bargaining (1) 3-01 Sep 24, 2001 Heartthrob
6-02 Oct 2, 2001 Bargaining (2) 3-02 Oct 1, 2001 That Vision Thing
6-03 Oct 9, 2001 After Life 3-03 Oct 8, 2001 That Old Gang of Mine
6-04 Oct 16, 2001 Flooded 3-04 Oct 15, 2001 Carpe Noctem
6-05 Oct 23, 2001 Life Serial 3-05 Oct 22, 2001 Fredless
6-06 Oct 30, 2001 All The Way 3-06 Oct 29, 2001 Billy
6-07 Nov 6, 2001 Once More, With Feeling 3-07 Nov 5, 2001 Offspring
6-08 Nov 13, 2001 Tabula Rasa 3-08 Nov 12, 2001 Quickening
6-09 Nov 20, 2001 Smashed 3-09 Nov 19, 2001 Lullaby
6-10 Nov 27, 2001 Wrecked 3-10 Dec 10, 2001 Dad
6-11 Jan 8, 2002 Gone 3-11 Jan 14, 2002 Birthday
6-12 Jan 29, 2002 Doublemeat Palace 3-12 Jan 21, 2002 Provider
6-13 Feb 5, 2002 Dead Things 3-13 Feb 4, 2002 Waiting in the Wings
6-14 Feb 12, 2002 Older and Far Away 3-14 Feb 18, 2002 Couplet
6-15 Feb 26, 2002 As You Were 3-15 Feb 25, 2002 Loyalty
6-16 Mar 5, 2002 Hell's Bells 3-16 Mar 4, 2002 Sleep Tight
6-17 Mar 12, 2002 Normal Again 3-17 Apr 15, 2002 Forgiving
6-18 Apr 30, 2002 Entropy 3-18 Apr 22, 2002 Double or Nothing
6-19 May 7, 2002 Seeing Red 3-19 Apr 29, 2002 The Price
6-20 May 14, 2002 Villains 3-20 May 6, 2002 A New World
6-21 May 21, 2002 Two to Go (1) 3-21 May 13, 2002 Benediction
6-22 May 21, 2002 Grave (2) 3-22 May 20, 2002 Tomorrow
7-01 Sep 24, 2002 Lessons 4-01 Oct 6, 2002 Deep Down
7-02 Oct 1, 2002 Beneath You 4-02 Oct 13, 2002 Ground State
7-03 Oct 8, 2002 Same Time, Same Place 4-03 Oct 20, 2002 The House Always Wins
7-04 Oct 15, 2002 Help 4-04 Oct 27, 2002 Slouching Toward Bethlehem
7-05 Oct 22, 2002 Selfless 4-05 Nov 3, 2002 Supersymmetry
7-06 Nov 5, 2002 Him 4-06 Nov 10, 2002 Spin the Bottle
7-07 Nov 12, 2002 Conversations with Dead People 4-07 Nov 17, 2002 Apocalypse, Nowish
7-08 Nov 19, 2002 Sleeper 4-08 Jan 15, 2003 Habeas Corpses
7-09 Nov 26, 2002 Never Leave Me 4-09 Jan 22, 2003 Long Day's Journey
7-10 Dec 17, 2002 Bring On The Night 4-10 Jan 29, 2003 Awakening
7-11 Jan 7, 2003 Showtime 4-11 Feb 5, 2003 Soulless
7-12 Jan 21, 2003 Potential 4-12 Feb 12, 2003 Calvary
7-13 Feb 4, 2003 The Killer In Me 4-13 Mar 5, 2003 Salvage
7-14 Feb 11, 2003 First Date 4-14 Mar 12, 2003 Release
7-15 Feb 18, 2003 Get It Done 4-15 Mar 19, 2003 Orpheus
7-16 Feb 25, 2003 Storyteller 4-16 Mar 26, 2003 Players
7-17 Mar 25, 2003 Lies My Parents Told Me 4-17 Apr 2, 2003 Inside Out
7-18 Apr 15, 2003 Dirty Girls 4-18 Apr 9, 2003 Shiny Happy People
7-19 Apr 29, 2003 Empty Places 4-19 Apr 16, 2003 The Magic Bullet
7-20 May 6, 2003 Touched 4-20 Apr 23, 2003 Sacrifice
7-21 May 13, 2003 End of Days 4-21 Apr 30, 2003 Peace Out
7-22 May 20, 2003 Chosen 4-22 May 7, 2003 Home
As a quick example, there is a crossover nod to fans in Angel 4-12 and Buffy 7-14. These aired on Feb 11th and Feb 12th respectively, not two weeks apart like you might think based on episode number.
Thanks Ellis! I took your data and put it in a Google Doc spreadsheet.
Every time I see one of these threads I think it’s time to try to get past season one again. But this time, the big decision for me is (and I actually need opinions here) do I watch Buffy or do I read The Stand?. Because either one will take months of my life.
Well, you’ll find lots of fans of the ***The Stand here. Me, I’d rather be forced to swallow a roadkill porcupine whole than read The Stand ***again. I read it highschool, loved it. Read it again in my thirties, and was appalled at how epically, monumentally, horrifying terrible it was. It now heads my list of the worst books I have ever read.
It really depends on your taste in reading material. Mine changed a lot in the 20 years between my readings of that book.
And hopefully you’ve noticed that even most hardcore Buffians get a little embarrassed about season one, so you’ll find plenty of people to encourage you to get past that. Try watching season 3, and see if it intrigues you enough to make you go back and sit through the backstory.
Good plan! I’m liking The Stand from the get-go, so I don’t have to wait for the enjoyment to begin. But checking out S3 is a great idea, much better than wading through 2 seasons and not knowing if it’ll pay off. But first, I’m finishing up Twin Peaks, that subject for another thread.
wonderlust I’m voting for Buffy, but only because I love the show and just, despite trying, do not like Stephen King.
Correction: I like his ideas/plots, but I just can’t handle the way he writes. I’ve read 5 or 6 of his books and finally said no more. The thought of reading a book written by King of The Stand’s thickness gives me the chills (and not in the good way).
If you’re really not sure about picking up Buffy, watch the following from Season 1:
Angel
Prophecy Girl
From Season 2:
When She Was Bad
What’s My Line, Parts 1 & 2
Surprise
Innocence
Passion
Becoming Parts 1 & 2
Then start watching all Episodes from Season 3 (though, I still make a case that you skip S3 Ep 1: Anne). If you’re loving it by the mid-end of season 3, you can fill in the blanks of seasons 1 & 2. If you’re not completely hooked by the end of season 3, this may not be your cup of tea.
Yeah, I originally compiled it in an Excel spreadsheet so that it prints neatly on one two-sided piece of paper. Sadly we can’t post attachments here, so I ran a quickie macro to format at it as text for posting above.
Email is in profile for anyone who wants the original spreadsheet.