All of Spike’s later changes happened after the chip. The chip forced him to behave in a way he never would have before. And gradually, believably, driven also by his falling in love with Buffy (which he also fought hard against) he found a way to be something close to human. That never happened to another vampire in the entire series, suggesting that it would never have been possible without the chip. The only other “nice” vampire was Angel, and his chip took the form of a soul. So there’s absolutely nothing to support your theory that those two instances–entirely unique in the BUffyverse–suggest that what happened to them could possibly have happened without their unique circumstances.
You’re completing discounting the fact that none of that would have happened without the chip. Could other vampires have “reformed” with something like a chip or a soul? Maybe. We don’t really know. All the other chipped vampires were too stupid to escape, and if they could escape, they wouldn’t have been able to survive. Spike, Angelus, and Darla were always sort of set apart has a special group of vampires–probably because they were intelligent enough to survive for centuries. But it doesn’t matter, because Buffy didn’t have the means to chip every vampire in Sunnydale. And even if she did, would it be a kind thing to do? Or would it damn all of them to a long, slow, painful period of starvation–not death, just turning into walking skeletons, or “famine victims but not half so funny.” And she didn’t have the means to soul every vampire–which would be cruel in its own way. It is, after all, a curse. A punishment.
So yeah, I guess in an abstract way you could argue that Buffy is some sort of mass murderer genocidal psycho. But in order to make that argument, you pretty much have to ignore the very devices that set Spike and Angel apart and make them demonstrably different from other vampires. It’s not that compelling to say “Well, if you do one of two really rare/impossible things, then you wouldn’t have to kill the vampires!” It’s like getting angry at vets that kill rabid dogs because if the dogs didn’t have rabies, they’d be perfectly fine.
Also, I think Endrew has a point (and I don’t think he was threadshtting). There have already been some pretty serious revealed spoilers in this thread, and for that reason I hope olives is just skimming. I hope people will be careful in the future (remember that casually mention villains count as spoilers too, especially when the villain reveal is a big deal in the series!).
Lissener,
[Spoiler]The chip didn’t force Spike to behave in a certain way, it prevented him from harming humans physically, but he was still able to endanger them in many other ways. It’s not hard to see that the chip wasn’t such a great idea to inhibit an intelligent vampire to still act in an evil way. That we don’t see Spike do worse, has more to do, imo, with meta reasons, mostly, that he was meant to occupy Cordy’s role. But we are also given reasons to believe that he has no real intention to do worse.
I agree that we don’t see other vampires act like Spike, though the Judge suggests that he is not the only one too close to humanity. And the vampire Dalton showed on one or two occasions his intellligence by rather fleeing from danger than giving in to any kind of bloodlust. Sure, we don’t know what he did on other occasions but his character suggests that a vampire can also be a craven bookworm.
There is also Holden Webster from “Conversations with Dead People” who rather enjoys talking with his old class mate; he still fights Buffy, but it looked like he rather followed a “tradition” than some irresistible urge.
We also have the junkie vampires on Angel who feed of humans but don’t necessarily kill them (during the fourth season), at least not immediately. And we learn of other demonic beings that sometimes prefer to be left alone and sometimes get along with humans and other beings just fine.
Still, I agree that we have little reason to assume that vampires are usually anything but murderous demons, but the existence of enough free will to make decisions trumping bloodlust and the vast variety among demonic beings suggest that the Slayer’s “Kill first” attitude might have resulted in more than one murder.
[/Spoiler]
wintertime:
I think the major reason Angel, Dru, Darla and Spike are so different is that they are all descended from The Master. There has been a lot of speculation (with some input from Joss and others) that this particular line of vamps was special. Each of them exhibited characteristics that were atypical, and they were notably more powerful than your average vamp. And more human.
[spoiler]You’re kidding me. That is the biggest retcon ever. Jesus, why doesn’t Joss admit that those vampires were different because they were the ones who were actual characters on the show instead of one-offs for Buffy to stake.
Oy. I love Buffy, but sometimes Joss just makes shit up.
The conversation over how the chip affected Spike’s overall character is an interesting one, though.[/spoiler]
[spoiler]I don’t think Joss has ever weighed-in, in canon, with the theory that the Master’s descendants are special in particular because they are his. However, it’s obvious they are exceptional. If you want to attribute a specific reason for it, saying it’s because the Order of Aurelius is different/special is as good as any other reason.
Also, Holden Webster in S7 had a bit of Spike’s soul. That’s why he behaved abnormally. That’s not something ever said on BtVS but in 5.13 of AtS, Why We Fight, it’s made pretty clear that Lawson is different from other vamps because he was infected with Angel’s soul when Angel made him. It wasn’t enough to make Lawson good (or Holden) but it’s enough to make them different. [/spoiler]
Yeah, he’s *always *doing that.
Too bad he won’t stop making shit up (I’m looking at you BtVS S8 Comics).
Hardly a retcon. The Master and his line have been special since the pilot. They have remarked more than a few times in the first season how much more powerful the Master is than ordinary vamps.
Aside to pepperlandgirl: Don’t go dossing Season 8! It gave us Mecha-Dawn and Buffy getting freaky with another Slayer. 
But the idea that vampires who are descended from him are “special” in some way was never stated in canon, IIRC. So to say that now, outside of canon, is a retcon.
No, that’s not what a retcon is. That’s fanwank. A retcon would be something inside canon that contradicts or changes established canon retroactively. Drusilla being Spike’s sire, not Angelus, is a good example of a retcon
But a fanwank is done by the fans. silenus is saying that Joss is the source of this idea, so that’s a retcon.
Well, maybe it’s not a retcon, because I don’t know that it specifically contradicts canon, but I’m pretty sure it never actually shows up in canon.
p.s. check your pms.
I was tearing up just thinking about it - some of the most powerful tv I have ever seen.
I too am envious of someone who gets to watch Buffy and Angel for the first time. Sigh. One thing I never got was the Buffy love on the show, that she was so special and wonderful; she just seemed kinda irritating to me.
Yeah, I never took Buffy seriously until I saw The Body. That sent me right back to the beginning to start from scratch.
WordOfGod is what you want. What the creator says is very nearly canon, and can only be decanonized if something contradictory shows up in the actual work after the staement is made.
pepperlandgirl,
[Spoiler]
I’ve never rewatched season 6 and 7, so I might easily be mistaken but, IIRC, Spike didn’t have a soul when he sired Holden?
Even if, it wouldn’t explain any specialness of the “children” of the Master, because he definitely didn’t have one when he sired Darla and she was soulless when she bit Liam etc.
Lawson, of course was a different matter; this vampire’s behaviour might very well be explained by having gained not just a demonic essence after his own soul went away but also part of Liam’s human one.
How this could have happened, is more than a bit mysterious in the Buffyverse, though we could argue that human souls work similarly to demonic essences: they both exist outside the world but are attracted to a physical vessel by some specific trigger or signal that says: ready for a demon or ready for a human “soul”. In Angel’s case, we would see both triggers/signals at work.
Anyway, I agree that the vampires sired by the Master and his … (well, how are the vampires called that belong to a family tree?) “children” seem to be exceptionally devious. Penn from “Somnambulist” not just had similar issues with his father, he also showed the cruelty (and talkativeness) that is so characteristic of Angelus – otoh, he totally lacked his creativity and “world ending” ambition … which is something other vampires of the Master-line showed time and again, except, once again, for Spike.
All in all, your theory seems to be sound enough, but doesn’t exclude the possibility – or rather: shown reality - of serious differences among the individual vampires of one family tree. Even if vampires of one lineage start with a piece of an essence that’s basically the same, they have proven to develop quite differently.
It also doesn’t exclude in any way the possibility that every vampire family is “special” in its own way. And given the variety of demon kinds in the Buffyverse, not all of them are necessarily unrepentantly evil.[/Spoiler]
[spoiler]
I’m not sure what you mean by my “theory”. I haven’t really put a theory out there. You offered examples of other vampires who behaved abnormally, and included Holden Webster. But within canon, it makes perfect sense for him to behave that way because 1) He was made in S7, after Spike had his soul and 2) We know that when a vampire with a soul makes another vamp, the new vamp is infected with a bit of the soul. I just watched Why We Fight last weekend, and I think the episode makes it pretty clear that somehow Lawson was different from the other pretty boys that Angel/us made.
I never said that Angel, Spike, Darla, and Dru were different because they were all part of the Master’s line. I was just commenting on what silenus said and agreeing that if you wanted to use that as an explanation for why they’re clearly unique, you could. But when it comes down to it, each one only started being “good” when they were forced into it. Angelus with his curse, Spike with his chip, and Darla when she was pregnant with Connor. Now, I have other problems with the whole concept of “you have to have a soul to be good” especially the way they wrote it, but at least they were mostly consistent with that stance. Which just makes Spike all the more exceptional for how far he made it with the chip (though as they pointed out in Crush, Buffy was his moral compass and probably served the same purpose as a soul in conjunction with the chip). [/spoiler]
If I may jump in -
I’ve seen no evidence that Angel, Spike and the rest of the family were any different from other vampires - they weren’t stronger, faster or physically tougher. They were better than other vamps the same way some people are better than other people, by being smarter and braver and generally more “heroic.” I think that they were exceptional as a family mainly because they were very good at selecting candidates (the Master saw something in Darla, Darla saw something in Angel and so on) and in “training” them.
Lineage has nothing to do with it.
Just to be clear, I like it enough to continue watching it through the entire series run. I am just hoping at some point it goes from ‘‘great fun’’ to ‘‘epic.’’
I too, gave up on Heroes. I think that show had the potential to be the best show ever. And they killed it.
In other news, I just realized the ‘‘Angel’’ guy is the ‘‘Bones’’ guy. I’ve never watched ‘‘Bones’’ (or ‘‘Angel’’ for that matter.)
At what point in the Buffy series did Angel run? I presume they are meant to be watched concurrently at some point?
Yes, they are meant to be watched concurrently. It’s BtVS S4/AtS S1, BtVS S5/AtS S2, BtVS S6/AtS S3, BtVS S7/AtS S4, and then AtS S5. You should watch AtS while you’re watching BtVS, because there are cross over events and because AtS is made of awesome. Always watch the Buffy episode first, because that’s how they were aired on the WB (and thus the crossovers usually start on BtVS).